Author Topic: "Dead spots" at the start of sennits  (Read 14873 times)

SlipJig

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"Dead spots" at the start of sennits
« on: May 13, 2006, 03:42:48 AM »
I'm making lanyards and experimenting with sennits for the post-join centre part leading down to the tool loop.

The "dead spot" before the sennit pattern gets started so far has been worst in the 8-strand square sennit. A judiciously-applied turk's head covers a multitude of sins, however the part to be covered is not always on-axis to the centre of the preceeding join knot (bulky at the back, empty at the front for the 8-strand square) thus with a covering knot stiffening it, the beginning of the sennit part can poke out of the joining knot a bit skewiff, not much but enough to bug me. (I want it to look "like a bought one"!) On finer cord it can be worked up pretty neatly but in say no. 20 VB cord the dead spot can be a nuisance. And anyway, putting a separate covering on is extra work which isn't needed if the sennit starts neatly.

Questions:

Do any of you have preferred sennits for this with minimum "dead spots" and or that can be persuaded to hang neatly out of the joining knot?

Have you come up with ways of minimising this area by perhaps "jigging" the instructions in getting the braid started?

Any of you have photos of "exposed" sennit tops that you wouldn't mind posting links to, so I can get a feel for how tightly that gap can be closed? (I've been surfing around but many examples have coverings and I'm on limited bandwidth at the moment so any shortcut pointers would be appreciated!  :) )  

Any other lanyard tricks you're willing to share?

With thanks in advance.

KnotNow!

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Re: "Dead spots" at the start of sennits
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2006, 08:27:36 AM »
Hi Slipjig,
Yes, I do have the perfect transition from the MW, Sinnet Knot or other beginning multi strand knot to make the transition to 8x square.  It is without ugly voids.  Or so it seems to me.  Now; how to send it and how to photo... I think we need to work off line and then come back to Forum after we've made it clear.  Can you stand some JPEG at low res?  Of course if anyone else has already posted it then have at it and post a link or photo.  It isn't simple but one time of doing it and you will wonder why you didn't think of it sooner... yet it is complex enough that if I did not have one of my own knots or my "Knote Books" I could not do it without some messing about.  I was working with H.G. Smith, who has a diagram, but it took a lot of skill to read what he wrote.. so I'd like to post an easier to understand method.  Please come back to me on PM or Email and we can hash it out.  My ISP is "awakward" this week and I've have two days of mail to collect and no way to do so.  Once you see the transition you will love it.  I work it into many projects each year and there are no ugly voids.
ROY S. CHAPMAN, IGKT-PAB BOARD.

SlipJig

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Re: "Dead spots" at the start of sennits
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2006, 01:29:41 AM »
Bingo!

Thank you, Roy - PM on its way.

(All other input still welcome, though!)

SlipJig

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Re: "Dead spots" at the start of sennits
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2006, 02:31:25 AM »
Bump.

M'learned friend Roy is currently doing battle with the issue of documenting his method for starting the eight-strand square neatly.

No other input/comment from anyone?

KnotNow!

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Re: "Dead spots" at the start of sennits
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2006, 05:05:30 AM »
Hi, Documenting, there is the rub.  Just before the July 4 weekend Alice and I visited our daughter, so that the ladies could have time to chat (face to face) I went to the shore and did some 8 strand sinnet.  Sitting on drift wood.. a lovely bell rope for the door bell in 2mm hemp is the result.  I looked at all the books I have on hand and it is not quite what we all do.  I am a bit ashamed not to be able to describe what is easy if you do it but impossible until you have done it.  How odd that I was even working in a transition this eve.  I'll keep on trying for a tutorial, as I don't think this is easy for most knotters.   Speaking of easy... .I am intending to be "KnotNow" but can't log on.  This is becasuse I am no longer PABPRES, having been disposed by Lindsey Philpott, IGKT-PAB President.
ROY S. CHAPMAN, IGKT-PAB BOARD.

SlipJig

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Re: "Dead spots" at the start of sennits
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2006, 06:46:38 AM »
Having myself made up an 8-colour test piece and spent much fruitless time staring at it, I don't think you need be ashamed!

I was just hoping to prod the topic along a bit - I am sure there are experienced lanyard makers lurking about, in addition to your good self, from whom many of us could learn.

Willeke

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Re: "Dead spots" at the start of sennits
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2006, 07:14:16 AM »
I do not have a ready to use solution, but have been fighting with the problem myself at times.
What I would do, if I had time now, is the following:
Make an 8 strand braid, stop it after a while and fix the ends in position for now.
Tie a string round the braid at the place where the 'dead spot' at the end starts.
Now you can see that about half the strings are a few tucs behind others, at the end of a braid you normally undo those with more crossings, at the start of the braid you need to make those extra tucs to avoid to fill the dead spot.

I hope this gets you working, if not, let me know and I try this weekend.

Willeke
"Never underestimate what a simple person can do with clever tools,
nor what a clever person can do with simple tools." - Ian Fieggen

Writer of A booklet on lanyards, available from IGKT supplies.

SlipJig

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Re: "Dead spots" at the start of sennits
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2006, 07:39:42 AM »
Thanks, Willeke.  All help happily received. :)

That's kind-of what I've done with the eight-strand square, and the issue is coming up with a method that can be kept clear in your head with eight strands of the same colour and that can be achieved with two hands rather than four. The square is very straightforward with four strands in each hand if you're not fussy about the dead spot, but juggling the strands for a tidy beginning is a different matter.  :(
« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 07:42:39 AM by SlipJig »

Fairlead

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Re: "Dead spots" at the start of sennits
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2006, 07:47:30 AM »
Have you tried using ABOK #2936 (Round) or #2938 (Square(ish)) ? Both use 8 strands but employ 2 x 4 lead crowning instead of plaiting which allows you to get the first tucks 'close up'.

Another point on lanyards (just to provoke some discussion) do you start at the pocket end or the neck?

 Gordon

SlipJig

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Re: "Dead spots" at the start of sennits
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2006, 07:58:36 AM »
I'll look those up tonight, Gordon.

What I've done with my first few lanyards is start on the neck loop in 4-strand round made in the same way as the 8-strand square (half the leads in each hand, the upper right round the back, up through the middle of the other set of leads and back across the front to the right, then the mirror-image from the left, etc), then seizing the two ends, covering the seizing with an 8-strand Matthew Walker, then a star knot, then the 8-strand square, whipping the end of that with one lead extended to form a tool loop, then covering the whipping with a turk's head.

Willeke

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Re: "Dead spots" at the start of sennits
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2006, 04:25:21 PM »
Quote
Another point on lanyards (just to provoke some discussion) do you start at the pocket end or the neck?

Gordon
I start at either end, just as my fancy tells me.

It depends on the design and the cord I work with.
Some lanyards start at a belt loop, to confuse the subject even more.

Willeke
"Never underestimate what a simple person can do with clever tools,
nor what a clever person can do with simple tools." - Ian Fieggen

Writer of A booklet on lanyards, available from IGKT supplies.

Willeke

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Re: "Dead spots" at the start of sennits
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2006, 09:55:46 PM »
I have been trying a little braiding at work this week, and here is a solution that seems to work.
I made drawings but they are of such a poor quality that I do not put them on line.
If the written version does not work for you I might make better drawings.

Tie your strings into the knot above the start of the braid, (or tie them together so that they are in the right order),
devide the strings so that you have the one in the middle at the top as most outside in either hand, and the ones in the middle at the bottom next to each other.
Number them 1 to 8 for now, for explanation only.

Cross 5 over 4,
3 over 5 (in between 5 and 4)
6 over 4 and 3, (between 5 and 3)
Start braiding with strand 8, going over the stands, down next to number 2 and back to its own side under the strands.

I hope you understand what I try to say.

I tried it with 4 colours, they started as 1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4, when braiding they were 1,2,1,2,3,4,3,4.

Willeke
"Never underestimate what a simple person can do with clever tools,
nor what a clever person can do with simple tools." - Ian Fieggen

Writer of A booklet on lanyards, available from IGKT supplies.

bazz

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Re: "Dead spots" at the start of sennits
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2006, 08:42:39 AM »
How Do All ;)
An easy way to get around the problem of voids and dead spots in your 8 strand square sinnet, and most others is to change the way that you braid them.

Most will braid downwards from a fixed knot siezing or whatever and braid downwards as in ABOK #3001, and most other books, this way will leave dead spots, unless you re-arrange the starting order.

One way to avoid this is to braid upwards, as you would do in a solid sinnet on a sinnet table, I have found that you can braid an 8 strand square sinnet in the hand by using the pattern ABOK; #3070, because you can arrange the strands in a symetrical order around the starting knot, which will be held in your hand, you can then braid upwards without leaving any dead spots.
You can use this method for most other rounded / squarish sinnets with not too many strands. 24 is the most I have tried in the hand.

Also to add to this, if you have a copy of the "Encyclopedia of rawhide and leather braiding"  you can arrange the strands as in the herring bone braid of 8 thongs, this is the same as the 8 strand square sinnet but with a core, forget about the core and arrange your strands as they come out of your starting knot if it is on a bell rope or whatever, in the same order shown in the picture and braid down, this gives a pleasing start with no voids, but not as neat as ABOK #3070

I hope this is of some help to anyone?
Please let me know if you try these methods, and how you get on.

Take care,
Barry ;D

« Last Edit: July 25, 2006, 11:19:11 AM by bazz »

SlipJig

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Re: "Dead spots" at the start of sennits
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2006, 05:25:14 AM »
Thanks, Fairlead, Willeke & Bazz.

Will try all these ABOK suggestions and other tricks ASAP and let you know how I get on.

I have a growing pile of 3/4-made fancy lanyards intended for the Classic Wooden Boat Festival IGKT get-together in Hobart next year that await the resolution of this little hurdle!!

SlipJig

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Re: "Dead spots" at the start of sennits
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2007, 05:53:20 AM »
Tie your strings into the knot above the start of the braid, (or tie them together so that they are in the right order),
devide the strings so that you have the one in the middle at the top as most outside in either hand, and the ones in the middle at the bottom next to each other.
Number them 1 to 8 for now, for explanation only.

Cross 5 over 4,
3 over 5 (in between 5 and 4)
6 over 4 and 3, (between 5 and 3)
Start braiding with strand 8, going over the stands, down next to number 2 and back to its own side under the strands.

I hope you understand what I try to say.

I tried it with 4 colours, they started as 1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4, when braiding they were 1,2,1,2,3,4,3,4.

Willeke


I am back to working on these lanyards now I have a little mound of other work completed. ABOK 2936 and 2938 work well. I am looking at the square sennit again as well as it is a bit "skinnier" which gives an alternative in lanyard designs where the central part needs to be a bit thinner for visual balance.

Have yet to try ABOK #3070.

Willeke, I tried your method yesterday and (forgive me!) I'm having a little trouble.

I understand how to group the strands as you describe.

Are the 1-8 numbers from left to right with left-hand middle-at-the-top thread 1 and the right-hand 8?

When you say cross 5 over 4, that's over as in 5 passes over four on the side closest to you so that it passes "inside" the knot rather than "outside"? Or the other way round?

When you take 3 in between 5 and 4, do you take it then to one side to become the bottom strand of that side? Same q. with strand 6.

Once you have done what is described in the instructions, how do you then proceed to make the sennit - do you use the round-the-back-and-up-between-the-strands method or do you use the two-across-the-front, two-behind method?

If and only if you have a bit of time, would you be able to add a few words to the description? I know it is not easy to describe these things in words - if you are busy, do not worry!
« Last Edit: January 28, 2007, 05:54:15 AM by SlipJig »