Author Topic: What defines a Bowline? - : a practical perspective  (Read 6568 times)

DerekSmith

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What defines a Bowline? - : a practical perspective
« on: August 25, 2011, 08:10:36 PM »
This topic is strictly about Practical knots.

ANY reference to Math will be reported as off topic for deletion as that is strictly Theory and Computing.

Now - where were we?...

Derek

PS    Tell me --  did the world just get a tiny tad more stupid or is that just my imagination?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 12:29:55 AM by DerekSmith »

knot4u

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Re: What defines a Bowline? - structure, characteristics, topology
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2011, 08:32:57 PM »
This topic is strictly about Practical knots.

ANY reference to Math will be reported as off topic for deletion as that is strictly Theory and Computing.

Now - where were we?...

Derek

PS    Tell me --  did the world just get a tiny tad more stupid or is that just my imagination?

Then, maybe you should change your title, genius.  "Topology" refers to mathematics when we're talking about knots.

HERE'S ANOTHER THREAD FOR THE KNOT THEORY FORUM
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 10:34:22 PM by Webmistress »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: What defines a Bowline? - structure, characteristics, topology
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2011, 08:57:58 PM »
This topic is strictly about Practical knots.
Now - where were we?...

We were, as you well know, deliberating over this very question.
A question about (a) *practical* knot(s) --about how to define one
of them; how to extend a common, venerable name/notion of one,
to other, possibly "new" knots.
.:. a question of definition(s), arguably philosophical & *theoretical*,
appropriate to a forum intended for such beyond-use aspects.

And it's an issue not in need of aggravation.

--dl*
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xarax

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Re: What defines a Bowline? - structure, characteristics, topology
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2011, 09:00:18 PM »
   So, when I would say that the fig. 8 knot is topologically different from the overhand knot, I am talking about mathematics ? And the post I write should immediatelly be expelled to the "Knot heory" section ? Please, knot4u, be sensible...When I would dare to say "one", one whatever, the post I write this "mathematical" word should be send to the "Mathematical Journal" ?   :)
This is not a knot.

knot4u

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Re: What defines a Bowline? - structure, characteristics, topology
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2011, 09:21:49 PM »
  So, when I would say that the fig. 8 knot is topologically different from the overhand knot, I am talking about mathematics ?

Yes!  If someone asks you to explain how it's topologically different, you will have to use mathematical terms if you want to explain the difference efficiently and precisely.

In this case, the word "topology" is in the freakin' title.  It makes no sense to have a request to discuss mathematics in the title and then later say this discussion shall not include a discussion of math.  I'm annoyed I even have to explain that.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: What defines a Bowline? - structure, characteristics, topology
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2011, 09:55:32 PM »
 I will not try to explain to you that, to define the relation 1+1=2, Principia Mathematica needed/used 150 pages of difficult Set Theory definitions..

And was seriously *dented* by far fewer, but resounding pages
from Goedel, where Hilbert & Frege also tried hard but failed.
Yes, defining the "simple" is ... not so simple!!
(And these were bright thinkers amongst bright thinkers!)

Can you see the shaping of "knot" definitions et cetera as activities
in this realm of deliberation, distinguishable from just putting up
a knot-form for consideration of (possible) practical use?

In fact, I might suggest that it is as well a fit to a "theory" (and
maybe a better name), philosophical --but *beside* "practical"--
heading that one simply explores the *knot space* of structures
that can be roughly conceived as points in some vast matrix,
a knot universe (multi-dinensioned).  Some things can be stated
and projected as series:  the overhand ("pretzel"), and next
a dble.overhand and so on, but then in the multiple forms one
has different orientations (anchor bend, stangle knot, ...?) of the
same topology.

Considerations of which seemingly "simple" things can quickly
be frustrating (to me, at least), as interconnections abound.


Of course, the mere mention of some aspect is not throwing
things off; that is different from where the thread topic focuses
on that aspect, in contradistinction to something "practical".


--dl*
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admin

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Re: What defines a Bowline? - structure, characteristics, topology
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2011, 10:35:50 PM »
@knot4u

A quick tip: If you do not have something constructive to offer in a thread, don't post.

Consider this a first warning...

roo

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Re: What defines a Bowline? - structure, characteristics, topology
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2011, 10:53:21 PM »
This topic is strictly about Practical knots.
No, it's not.

This has nothing to do with what a bowline can do, what problem it solves, or what role it fills.  This is a transparent attempt to circumvent the decision of the moderators and forum members.

I didn't report the first thread on this, but I'm reporting this thread... as should anyone who's tired of the Practical Knot board getting hijacked, either accidentally, or in this case, on purpose.
If you wish to add a troll to your ignore list, click "Profile" then "Buddies/Ignore List".


WebAdmin

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Re: What defines a Bowline? - structure, characteristics, topology
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2011, 10:57:52 PM »
Hi Derek

Please would you demonstrate the practical nature of this thread so that everyone can see the discussion move forwards?

Regards

Glenys
Lesley
WebAdmin

roo

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Re: What defines a Bowline? - structure, characteristics, topology
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2011, 11:02:38 PM »
Hi Derek

Please would you demonstrate the practical nature of this thread so that everyone can see the discussion move forwards?
Shouldn't the first post do that?

Here's what it says:
What defines a Bowline? - structure, characteristics, topology

...copy and pasted from the offending thread.

Then, if there was any doubt (which there isn't really), we get:

Quote
Now - where were we?...
>:(

« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 11:05:44 PM by roo »
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admin

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Re: What defines a Bowline? - structure, characteristics, topology
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2011, 11:15:55 PM »
This topic is strictly about Practical knots.

Derek.

Would you be amendable to editing the topic title to say "What defines a Bowline? - structure, characteristics, topology: a practical perspective?". This may help to distinguish this practical discussion from the other theoretical one for those who use the Show unread posts since last visit to scan new posts/topics.

xarax

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Re: What defines a Bowline? - structure, characteristics, topology
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2011, 12:01:39 AM »
  Can you see the shaping of "knot" definitions et cetera as activities in this realm of deliberation, distinguishable from just putting up a knot-form for consideration of (possible) practical use?

  If you are asking me, of course I do ! However, both activities have to do with Practical knots, and not Decorative Knots, or Mathematical Knots. ( I think that those three divisions should stay distinct : Practical, Decorative, Mathematical) So, both activities should be explicitly labeled as activities that have to do with Practical Knots. They may be considered as two sub-categories of the same Practical Knots Section, or two different sections, but sections relating to Practical knots, for KnotGod s sake !

the *knot space* of structures ...can be roughly conceived as points in some vast matrix,
a knot universe (multi-dimensioned).  Some things can be stated and projected as series...

   For Practical Knots, I do not think that the matrix would be vast. Also, I do not think that the dimensions/orientations would be so many, or the series would have so many members. In fact, I have seen that, if we stay within the limits of some reasonable complexity dictated by the "practicality" of a knot, this "knot space" is already explored, more or less, and it is within our mental abilities to fully grasp it. Practicality itself seem to put an upper limit on the number of interconnections, within the abilities of the human minds, organised in a collaborating community. I dare to say this because I have tied many "new" knots and I have tried many alterations/modifications of old "ones", and I have seen that you only have to make one step, just one step, and suddenly your knot becomes too complex, so it is not Practical any more ! I reckon that the number of ALL possible Practical knots would be only one order of magnitude bigger than of the already known ones. With the proper computer tools, i.e. software programs, the mapping of this Practical knot space would be a matter of months, or even weeks ! ( I could not think or say something like this for the Decorative knots, of course ! There, the space is vast, indeed ! )  
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 12:11:28 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

DerekSmith

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Re What defines a Bowline? - : a practical perspective
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2011, 12:31:46 AM »
This topic is strictly about Practical knots.

Derek.

Would you be amendable to editing the topic title to say "What defines a Bowline? - structure, characteristics, topology: a practical perspective?". This may help to distinguish this practical discussion from the other theoretical one for those who use the Show unread posts since last visit to scan new posts/topics.

Good suggestion Mel, but it would not fit into the title bar, so I shortened it a little.

Derek
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 12:35:07 AM by DerekSmith »

xarax

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Re: What defines a Bowline? - structure, characteristics, topology
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2011, 12:35:34 AM »
Please would you demonstrate the practical nature of this thread so that everyone can see the discussion move forwards ?
Would you be amendable to editing the topic title to say "What defines a Bowline? - structure, characteristics, topology: a practical perspective?".

   Where is this thing written as a rule ? That we have to demonstrate(sic) that a knot is practical, in order to publish it in the Practical Knots section ? That we have to "state a specific application of this knot ", in advance, in the first post, in order to be able to post a picture of it ? Who is going to judge if this "demonstration" is valuable/adequate or not ? Are we going to "vote" each time? Are we going to replace the farce of "voting", by the farce of "demonstration of practicality"? If I do a photoshop fake picture, with a bend where the one end is tied on roo s neck, and the other on knot4u foot, would this be an acceptable demonstration of an application of this bend, a "proof " that this bend is a Practical indeed? Should we declare we are not terrorists, or infected by a catching disease, each time we are going to publish something in this forum ? What is happening ? Is this Forum falling apart or something ? It would be a pity...and a GREAT farce, if the king of Practical knots, the bowline, would be the cause of such a sad end...Web-Administrator, tear down this wall that threatens to separate us for ever ! Stop this madness, make all the sections one, and let all flowers to blossom !
This is not a knot.

roo

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Re: What defines a Bowline? - structure, characteristics, topology
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2011, 12:40:29 AM »
make all the sections one, and let all flowers to blossom !
There's already an anything-goes forum.  It's the Chit-Chat section.

I don't understand this obsessive desire to treat the Practical Knots section like another Chit-Chat section.  Does the Decorative Knot forum get hijacked as much?

P.S.  We'll be waiting a long time to see any practical knotting solutions coming out of this deliberately misplaced thread.  
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 12:53:02 AM by roo »
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