Author Topic: A most simple bend .  (Read 12970 times)

xarax

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A most simple bend .
« on: July 09, 2011, 03:16:03 AM »
   Searching for an alternative to the so simple, yet so asymmetric Sheet bend, I arrived at the bend shown in the attached picture. (1) Although it might considered to be an even simpler knot than the Sheet bend - as it does not use the collar element -  it is surprising stable and secure. However, I must stress that I have not tested it with very flexible, or very slippery material.
 
1) This knot is known as the Whatknot (ABoK#1406). I was not aware of it at the time I started this thread, as I do not pay any attention to the knots that Ashley has marked by his scull and bones danger sign !  :) However, I do not think that this knot, if properly tied, tightened and kept under constant tension, is dangerous, not at all.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 05:03:01 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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Re: A most simple bend .
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2011, 03:31:16 AM »
   And here is a re-tucked variation of the Whatknot. ( See attached pictures) It is an interlocked-overhand- knots bend, in a dressing that I, for one, have not met before. Being a bend that belongs to this large family of reliable bends, it is very stable and secure, and we might say that it has an additional rare advantage : although it is already a very simple knot, its un-tucked version remains a - quite satisfactory, given its outmost simplicity - stable and secure bend, too  !

   Note :To be able to re-tuck the ends/tails the way it is shown in the pictures of this bend, at this post, one has to consume about two times the rope length that is shown in the picture of the parent Whatknot(ABoK#1406), at the previous post.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 05:28:22 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

alpineer

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Re: A most simple bend .
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2011, 03:39:50 AM »
Hey xarax,
It's known as the What Knot, ABoK#1406.
I've also played with extensions for this knot because if the ends get twisted in the opposite direction it becomes ABoK #1407 (aka Grief Knot, the most insecure bend there is).

alpineer  
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 03:54:01 AM by alpineer »

xarax

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Re: A most simple bend .
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2011, 03:59:09 AM »
   Thank you Alpineer,

   Yes, the un-tucked version is known as the Whatknot (ABoK1406) to all, but me, obcviously... :) I will edit my first post accordingly. I was right to re-tuck the ends as I did, because they do not run the danger to get twisted the way you describe.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 04:13:07 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

alpineer

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Re: A most simple bend .
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2011, 04:32:54 AM »
1) This knot is known as the Whatknot (ABoK#1406). I was not aware of it at the time I started this thread, as I do not pay any attention to the knots that Ashley has marked by his scull and bones danger sign !  :) However, I do not think that this knot, if properly tied, tightened and kept under constant tension, is dangerous at all.

Actually, only ABoK#1407 gets the skull and crossbones. As for ABoK#1406, Ashley states that it is a more secure bend than many far more trustworthy knots.

xarax

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Re: A most simple bend .
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2011, 05:01:13 AM »
   Yes, I see it now...The danger sign is in the middle of the properly tied Whatknot (ABoK#1406), and the dangerous, falsely tied Whatknot (ABoK#1407), so I was confused...
   If we see the properly tied Whatknot (Ashley#1406) as a simpler, symmetric variation of the Sheet bend, we will never tie it wrongly... because we will understand the mechanism of the two interlocked single hitches, that is present at the ABoK#1406, but absent at the ABoK#1407. 
This is not a knot.

TheTreeSpyder

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Re: A most simple bend .
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2011, 10:03:06 AM »
This is a magicians trick for kids; get them to tie a Grief/ Granny-Thief (combined faults of Granny and Thief that make Square fail) in same line as you have Whatknot; 'flip of the wrist' gives the conversion.

Very good example of proper alignmeant needed to properly invoke and empower the mechanics or make them fail, to me evolving from 1 of the simplest of lacings, the Square.

To me, the secret is the Whatknot forces 2 opposing hitches essentially, the Grief interrupts that Nipping action or full Nipping of Whatknot, almost to the point of seeming to be 2 turning gear wheels (instead of 2 ends of lines) as Grief walks right out of the line / off the job.

i think on the flips side finishing with Anchor / Dbl. Noose on each, could give more strength 'back' if using Grief than Whatknot; because the tension force remaining on 'Bitter side' as Grief 'unreels' is the put to good use (where it doesn't exist past the full Nip of the Whatknot) to firm / stabilize the Standing of the other side(and offer other leg of support, with least deformity in Standing etc.).

xarax

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Re: A most simple bend .
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2011, 11:03:32 AM »
   Thank you TreeSpyder,

  ...the secret is that the Whatknot forces 2 opposing hitches, essentially... the Grief interrupts that Nipping action, or full Nipping of the Whatknot, almost to the point of seeming to be 2 turning gear wheels (instead of 2 ends of lines), as the Grief walks right out of the line / off the job.
(with minor editing)

   I could not have expressed what I , too, see in the mechanism of the Whatknot, and its difference with the Grief knot, with any better wording... A fine two sentences/lines exposition ! I confess the I do not understand your wording some times, but this time it is perfectly clear, even for me.  :)

  .. i think on the flips side finishing with Anchor / Dbl. Noose on each, could give more strength 'back", if using Grief than Whatknot ; because the tension force remaining on the "Bitter side" as the Grief "unreels" is put to good use (where it doesn't exist past the full Nip of the Whatknot) to firm / stabilize the Standing part of the other side (and offer another leg of support, with least deformity in the Standing part, etc.).

   I agree, but that would be a totally different, more complex bend. I was seeking oft the most simple bend, that, if once un-tucked, ( if both tails manage, somehow, to slip out of the knot s nub ),it would still remain a simple, secure bend.
This is not a knot.

xarax

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Re: A most simple bend .
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2011, 11:35:03 AM »
   Here are pictures of three similarly looking, but functionally very different, bends, published in this Forum, that are made by interlocking overhand knots, in other ways than the classic 4 ( Zeppelin, Ashley s, Hunter s, Shakehands). It is very interesting to notice the differences, and it would be great if somebody bothered to test them,  so we could get a more complete picture of their workings.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 12:12:21 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

DDK

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Re: A most simple bend .
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2011, 01:44:07 PM »
  Searching for an alternative to the so simple, yet so asymmetric Sheet bend, I arrived at the bend shown in the attached picture. (1) Although it might considered to be an even simpler knot than the Sheet bend - as it does not use the collar element -  it is surprising stable and secure. However, I must stress that I have not tested it with very flexible, or very slippery material.
 
1) This knot is known as the Whatknot (ABoK#1406). I was not aware of it at the time I started this thread, as I do not pay any attention to the knots that Ashley has marked by his scull and bones danger sign !  :) However, I do not think that this knot, if properly tied, tightened and kept under constant tension, is dangerous, not at all.


I believe that the Whatknot/Grief Knot tied in this configuration/setting of its ends is known as a Grass Bend (ABOK #1490, which is recommended for flat semi-flexible materials, eg. straps)

DDK

DDK

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Re: A most simple bend .
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2011, 02:02:55 PM »
. . . To me, the secret is the Whatknot forces 2 opposing hitches essentially, the Grief interrupts that Nipping action or full Nipping of Whatknot, almost to the point of seeming to be 2 turning gear wheels (instead of 2 ends of lines) as Grief walks right out of the line / off the job.  . . .

I have seen this general phenomena and its relevance to the Grief Knot discussed by DerekSmith.  He used the phrase "cogging" . . . http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1597.msg10962#msg10962

DDK

TheTreeSpyder

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Re: A most simple bend .
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2011, 02:22:36 PM »
That is because we went to different schools together.

DDK

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Re: A most simple bend .
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2011, 02:49:24 PM »
That is because we went to different schools together.

Hmmm, "gearing" vs. "cogging" or maybe even "dragging", tough choice.   :)  -- DDK

xarax

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Re: A most simple bend .
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2011, 03:17:53 PM »
  I  believe that the Whatknot/Grief Knot tied in this configuration/setting of its ends is known as a Grass Bend (ABOK #1490

   No, the orientation of the tails relatively to each other is opposite in the ABoK#1490 than in the ABoK#1406. However, the real difference is functional. The mechanism is different, because the tails, in the ABoK#1490, are secured only by being squeezed towards each other, and not by the additional squeeze by the two tensioned standing parts, as in the ABK#1406.
   See the attached pictures for a re-tucked variation of ABoK#1490. A very different bend from the retucked ABoK#1406, but an interesting bend nevertheless. A sort of fisherman knot...it remains to be seen if the tails are secured in a satisfactory degree by that mutual squeeze of theirs.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 03:47:56 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

DDK

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Re: A most simple bend .
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2011, 03:58:41 PM »
  I  believe that the Whatknot/Grief Knot tied in this configuration/setting of its ends is known as a Grass Bend (ABOK #1490

   No, the orientation of the tails relatively to each other is opposite in the ABoK#1490 than in the ABoK#1406. However, the real difference is functional. The mechanism is different, because the tails, in the ABoK#1490, are secured only by being squeezed towards each other, and not by the additional squeeze by the two tensioned standing parts, as in the ABK#1406.

The Grass Bend looks to me to have its ends oriented the same as in ABOK 1406 as opposed to ABOK 1407.  That is, ABOK 1490 looks just like 1406 tied using flat material to me.  If using the same material, I do not see how 1406 would differ from 1490 in structure or mechanism.  Granted, flat material or straps would behave somewhat differently.  Not that this is authoritative as far as I know, but, this video of the tying of a grass bend is of the ABOK 1406 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ElzdyZqfrc.  -- DDK
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 04:13:45 PM by DDK »