Author Topic: Have you seen this knot ? If yes, where ? What is it ?  (Read 4505 times)

xarax

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Have you seen this knot ? If yes, where ? What is it ?
« on: June 10, 2011, 09:51:51 AM »
      Have you seen this knot ? If yes, where ? What is it ? I guess it can serve as a "4 ends bend", or a mid-line bend may be ? I have filed the copied picture, but I do not remember the original site, in the wild of the web, I have met it.
This is not a knot.

Transminator

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Re: Have you seen this knot ? If yes, where ? What is it ?
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2011, 02:17:54 PM »
Hi Xarax

That looks like a snake knot.
http://www.stellaceleste.com/htm/knots/snakeknot.htm


xarax

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Re: Have you seen this knot ? If yes, where ? What is it ?
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2011, 03:46:20 PM »
    Thank you Transminator ,

    No question about it ! I see it matches exactly ! You got it !
    I have to admit that I was not aware of this simple knot ! I have never seen it before...Is it in the ABoK ? My knowledge of knot literature is soo poor, but how such a beautiful thing has never caught my attention ? Does it belong to "decorative" knots, a vast field about which I know next to nothing ? I will study it right away, and see how it works ( and if it can modified in any interesting way...   :))
   Thank you so much. " I grow older, always teaching myself " (Socrates)

1. http://www.survivalworld.com/knots/snake_knot.html
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 04:46:52 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

SS369

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Re: Have you seen this knot ? If yes, where ? What is it ?
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2011, 12:00:40 AM »
Be careful xarax, decorative knotting could just become addictive. lol
And you never know, it could just be that there is a practical use for some of those knots.
Or some weird idea for a totally useful knot may spring forth from tying them.
Some tyers are not opposed to a little weaving.

SS

xarax

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Re: Have you seen this knot ? If yes, where ? What is it ?
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2011, 02:28:35 AM »
And you never know, it could just be that there is a practical use for some of those knots.
Or some weird idea for a totally useful knot may spring forth from tying them.

   Exactly. I think that the cases where we can tell, in advance, that  a simple, symmetric knot will never proved to be practical, are rare. Moreover, I think that there are some knots which are, and will remain to be, on the border line, as the Matthew Walker two strand knot/bend, for example.
    When we meet, for the first recorded time, a simple, but effective rope tangle - effective as regards its ability to not allow the free ends set themselves free, as they tend to do -, we must examine it carefully. And after this initial examination, we must test it. It is only AFTER this initial examination and testing, that we might get a glimpse of the future, and attempt a prognosis about if this tangle is going to live, as a practical knot, or to die.
   I am sure that many of the practical knots we use today are derived AFTER they have been conceived as rope play or art, from the pre-historic times. And may be in the not too distant future, when people will not use knots any more  :), the practical knots of our epoch will be seen as decorative patterns which were used for practical purposes as well, for unknown reasons !   :)

Some tyers are not opposed to a little weaving.

   The distinction between a weave and a knot, brought to my attention only recently by Derek Smith, is something that must be defined carefully, I believe. Because the spatially and/or temporally repetitive character of the weaving, which is what produces, at the end of the day, the patterns, is also met in some knots. And there is the Carrick bend, where, as Derek Smith points out, a weave is transformed into a knot quite miraculously, by the sole action of pulling two of its four free ends.
   Also, weaving has often as effective therapeutic results in ours convoluted knot tyer soul, as knotting !   :) :)
« Last Edit: June 11, 2011, 02:32:16 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Have you seen this knot ? If yes, where ? What is it ?
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2011, 07:29:30 AM »
am sure that many of the practical knots we use today are derived AFTER they have been conceived as rope play or art,
from the pre-historic times.

  For instance, ...  ???    ::)

--dl*
====

siriuso

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Re: Have you seen this knot ? If yes, where ? What is it ?
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2011, 03:18:57 PM »
Snake Knot is same as Whatnot (#1407).

xarax

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Re: Have you seen this knot ? If yes, where ? What is it ?
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2011, 06:19:34 PM »
Snake Knot is same as Whatnot (#1407).

    When we try to compare two knots, we better tie them, and tie them many times, the one after the other, alternatevely. Looking at images or pictures of knots may well drive us to wrong conclusions. Knots are material, tangible rope structures, and their pictorial representations reveal no more but a tiny part of their essential qualities.
This is not a knot.

siriuso

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Re: Have you seen this knot ? If yes, where ? What is it ?
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2011, 03:12:11 AM »
Agree. I should say the Snake Knot starts with the Whatnot and continues with Whatnots.

xarax

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Re: Have you seen this knot ? If yes, where ? What is it ?
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2011, 03:21:21 AM »
I am sure that many of the practical knots we use today are derived AFTER they have been conceived as rope play or art, from the pre-historic times.
 For instance, ...  ???    ::)

  I know that there is a - widely spread - popular misconception about human discoveries and inventions, their original causes, the motives that made our ancestors to discover/invent the tools we now use. In the case of knots, a naive reasoning might lead somebody to believe that there were first a need to tie something with a rope, and then a clever guy discovered/invented a knot to satisfy this need. A tool discovered/invented for some practical use. A plausible cause, but far from the truth nevertheless.
   It is known that humans use tools to satisfy "higher", social needs, ( to help them been selected, and survive, within an antagonistic social group of other humans ),  as well as "lower", personal ones ( to help them been selected, and survive, within a hostile physical environment ).  The tools they have discovered/invented were beneficial not only to their evolution as species, ( natural selection regarding the physical environment), but also to their evolution within a species ( natural selection regarding the social environment).
   (The same is true for many other animals as well. A well know case is the spectacular mating techniques of some birds )
   A prehistoric human is wearing an animal fur. Has he invented this behaviour because he was feeling cold ? Or because he wishes to aquire the vital force of the dead animal ? Or because he wishes to persuade the male members of the group that he is the strongest one ? Or because he wishes to persuade the female members of the group that he is the fittest one ?
   A prehistoric man is tying a knot. Has he invented this tool because he wishes to join two pieces of rope ? Or because he wishes to tie the hands and feet of his prisoner ? Or because he wishes to impress a female spectator ? Or because he wishes to pose a Gordian knot-type problem to his audience, that he, and he alone, can solve, as an able respectable magician ?  
   I believe that we underestimate the motives of inventions that stem out of higher mental functions of the human brain, and higher social functions of the human society. These functions helped our ancestors to survive within the social group, mate and  reproduce more, cure their fear of death with religion, satisfy their curiosity with game, seduce their female partners with ornaments, deceive their enemies with disguised traps, gain the trust of their friends with reasonable arguments.
   It seems too simple to me, that a prehistoric inventor first realized the practical need and usefulness of knots as rope structures that prevented slippage, and then invented them on purpose, to bind something, or to connect two short pieces of rope together. A scenario more akin to the true human nature, is one where this inventor try to elevate his own social status within a social group, with some kind of trick, game, ornament, beautiful piece of art, confusing mental problem or cunning deadly trap that will eliminate his adversaries. Humans are machines that manage to survive using clever tools, albeit for more complex tasks than we often tend to believe.
  
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 03:26:30 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

SS369

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Re: Have you seen this knot ? If yes, where ? What is it ?
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2011, 04:31:16 AM »
Or prehistoric fore-bearers discovered the useability of tangles by accident and sentience took over to reuse the contraption.
Kind of like we do today.
 ;)

SS

Next stop for this is chit chat please.