Author Topic: Are these "New" knots?  (Read 4579 times)

KingRobin

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Are these "New" knots?
« on: June 07, 2011, 02:19:35 PM »
Hi All,

(Note: Being new to the forum, I submitted this post in the "Chit Chat" forum by mistake, so here it is in the "Practical Knots Forum" as it, perhaps, should have been from the beginning.)

Just playing around with some line and came up with these and couldn't find any reference to them.

https://picasaweb.google.com/reno.restoration/NewKnotsForSubmission?authkey=Gv1sRgCJLwzaLmy6P5RA#

One is a modified "Cow's Hitch", that has a property that when tied with smaller line around larger line, as in the Rolling Hitch, allows for an anti-slip property but different in that it works equally well in both directions regardless of which line is pulled.  Therefore, it could be tied in the end of a line rather that dual lines as the Cow's Hitch is usually done.  I have also come up with multiple methods in which to tie this knot.

If it is undocumented, I know very unlikely, I would like to offer up the name of "Meg's Modified Cow's Hitch" of "Meg's Mod" for short!

The second knot is a slip knot that has an interesting property that it can be cinched up against an object and hold because it kinks the line.  For something that you want to trap but is not under any great strain, vibration, etc.

This one I call "KingRobin's Cinch" or perhaps "King Cinch" or "Rob's Cinch"

Ok, it's out there, have a go and let me know if either of these are documented knots.

Thanks to All,

KingRobin
June 7, 2011

Transminator

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Re: Are these "New" knots?
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2011, 03:03:20 PM »
Are these "New" knots?

Hi King Robin and welcome to the forum.

No, they are not new knots.
The first one is a bull hitch.
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/bullhitch.html
The second one is a variation of slide and grip hitches such as the Midshipman's Hitch or Tautline Hitch or adjustable grip hitch, though this particular configuration might not have a name, but the concept is not new.
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/tautline.html

KingRobin

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Re: Are these "New" knots?
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2011, 03:32:53 PM »
Ok and thank you for the quick response.

I accept the "bull hitch", as that is exactly what it is; however the second one that you describe is a Rolling Hitch on a loop but certainly is not like the knot I submit.

The concept, yes, is the same but do you know if that knot, or probably better referred to as hitch, is described somewhere as shown?

Thanks,

KingRobin

Transminator

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Re: Are these "New" knots?
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2011, 07:45:47 PM »
Hi Robin

Not that I am aware of, so it might be an unpublished knot.
Wether it is as good/better then the ones I pointed to, is another question. Needs to be tested, I guess.
I usually go for the adjustable grip hitch and I compare any other slid-gripper with that one.

Greetings

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Are these "New" knots?
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2011, 07:47:34 PM »
As has been noted, the first (leftmore) knot is a bull hitch with the
crossed orientation.

The other knot is a noose-hitch hardly fit for sliding & gripping.
I can't say that such a knot has crossed my path; but I don't
find anything particularly good about it over many other simple
noose-hitches that have, so I could've forgotten it.  I just gave
some 7mm marine kernmantle line a stressing tied around a
'biner (loaded to 100-200#?), and the knot looks like it might
jam.  I don't like how the line turns around the object and then
reaches to the away end of the knot.


--dl*
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SS369

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Re: Are these "New" knots?
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2011, 11:37:08 PM »
Hi KingRobin and welcome to the Forum.

Your submission, not the Bull hitch, looked familiar to me and so I dove into my knot literature. I came away bleary eyed and empty handed. But I do sort of, partially, have a glimmer of that memory and it had to do with fishing. Angler's noose is tickling the synapses, but I can't find it searching the Net.
I tied yours a few times and it works well enough, though I added another encircling turn at the loop (hitching) end and stress tested it (not scientifically). The result for me in three differing sized ropes was that is aided in strengthening against ring loading, untied easier and made it more attractive. < Might sway some to use it.

Thank you for the submission.

SS

Transminator

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Re: Are these "New" knots?
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2011, 08:23:47 AM »
Angler's noose is tickling the synapses

Perhaps you meant the "perfection loop"?
They look somewhat similar but perform completely different.

xarax

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Re: Are these "New" knots?
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2011, 09:52:34 AM »
   Hi KingRobin,

   About the general method of doubling the coils of the "neck" of the hitch, to improve its holding power, we had a quite long discussion in that forum (See 1)   
   See the attached pictures, for some relevant examples. One can also use this method to imrove the pile htch, and the prusik.
   I am glad you try your hand to tie new knots. For a recent definition of what is - or what should be considered to be - a new knot, see 2.
   When I meet people with a creative mind on knot tying, like you, I remind them the words of Ashley; 
   "I supposed that everything so simple a nature had already being discovered."
   Do not fall into this trap, very effective in the field of knot tying.
   Go on !
 

1) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2166.0
2) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3125.0
This is not a knot.

SS369

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Re: Are these "New" knots?
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2011, 01:40:53 PM »
Thanks Transminator ,

but that's not it. The perfection loop and the other's closely identified as such, are fixed loop knots and the one I can't seem to locate/recall/remember is a noose as is KingRobin's.
I'll continue to dredge and will post if I find it.

SS

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Are these "New" knots?
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2011, 06:48:03 PM »
Quote
... a noose as is KingRobin's.

Unlikely presented before now, but <who knows>,
for a decent-looking noose-hitch for rings, tie a
reverse ossel hitch.  (There are many such simple things.)

 :)

xarax

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Re: Are these "New" knots?
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2011, 08:41:06 PM »
   The structure of the second knot presented here, is similar to the structure of the "short" Double harness bend (see (1), and attached picture) . I do not trust the supposed local resistance of the ropes to shear forces, that it seems we always take for granted... Tied on a material flexible enough, the tail will be bent and squeezed through the collar, and the knot will run the danger to collapse further.

1) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2851.0
This is not a knot.

KingRobin

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Re: Are these "New" knots?
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2011, 06:22:18 PM »
The below quotation by Dan leads me to believe that perhaps I didn't communicate my original statement well enough to be understood!

Firstly, the "noose" manifests by virtue of the friction knot on the standing end.  That is the obvious part so no comment is required.

This friction knot allows the noose to be set and hold whereby further force on the noose applies more friction to the bend and the tighter the frictiion bend grips the standing end.

So therefore you can adjust the noose to be whatever size you want making it larger or smaller as need be.

Whether it is as good as other knots or bends is another question.

Secondly, if something is put into the noose, you can cinch up the bend to whatever object is trapped and the noose will hold with a reasonable amount of temporary force.  Maybe there is some application for this bend in that.

My intention was not to see if it was the best, better or even as good ... but if there is record of such a knot or bend.

Thanks everyone,

KingRobin


As has been noted, the first (leftmore) knot is a bull hitch with the
crossed orientation.

The other knot is a noose-hitch hardly fit for sliding & gripping.
I can't say that such a knot has crossed my path; but I don't
find anything particularly good about it over many other simple
noose-hitches that have, so I could've forgotten it.  I just gave
some 7mm marine kernmantle line a stressing tied around a
'biner (loaded to 100-200#?), and the knot looks like it might
jam.  I don't like how the line turns around the object and then
reaches to the away end of the knot.


--dl*
====

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Are these "New" knots?
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2011, 09:45:23 PM »
The below quotation by Dan leads me to believe that perhaps
I didn't communicate my original statement well enough to be understood!

Firstly, the "noose" manifests by virtue of the friction knot on the standing end.
That is the obvious part so no comment is required.

This friction knot allows the noose to be set and hold
whereby further force on the noose applies more friction to the bend
and the tighter the frictiion bend grips the standing end
.

.

The other knot is a noose-hitch hardly fit for sliding & gripping.
...

--dl*
====

KingRobin, I understood your remarks, but I disagree with
the assertion highlighted : greater force leads to a straightening
of the SPart and friction doesn't increase sufficiently to hold
--the knot slides.  (I have seen this, at least, in some solid-braid
of (I think) multifilament polypropylene.)  You will get various
results with various materials, but this isn't a knot I'd want
to trust, in general, for making a(n adjustable) fixed eye.

--dl*
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Are these "New" knots?
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2011, 03:46:04 PM »
I should add that some 36 years ago I fancied a similar sort of eyeknot,
which might be seen as a *double hump* version to this one's single
*hump* (i.e., point of bend SPart, frictional area).  (My sort of
"date-stamp ID" for this would be 19781022s11:07; "s" = "Sunday".)
While it's not a clear precedent for KingRobin's knot, it does show
some similar thinking about the knotting mechanism --of putting
a bend ("hump") into the SPart for holding.

verbal instructions:

Make your eye (size it, i.e.),

then form a crossed bight (oblong "loop", if you will)
in the tail and lay that over the SPart, with the crossing
parts (eye-side & tail-side) crossed over the SPart,
going to either side, thus;

bring the tail around under the SPart (through the
eye),
over the eye-leg (the other crossing part, i.e.),
and through/between the crossed parts (of the bight)
and the SPart (c.p. above, SP. below).  One hump
is thus formed;

raise a bight/section of SPart up through the crossed
bight laid over it,
and now reeve the tail through this gap (over bight
sides, under raised SPart),
around under bight legs/all, and one more time
through the gap (so, a round turn); this is the
2nd "hump" and the locking of the tail.


One will need to adjust things via the end-side eye-leg,
sizing the above knotting part of the structure such
that a sufficient (but maybe not too much ) bending
of the SPart obtains.  Not sure all how easily this can
be done in a sort of eye-sizing adjustment, but I suppose
within reason it can be slid up or down the SPart
before then pulling things snug enough to generate
some significant "humps" to hold --to hold some force.

But even with this 2nd "hump" of friction-building bending
I don't see the knot as assuredly secure.  It's a lot of knotting
to do for that, and lacking any clear benefit I'd want to use
something surer or easier (such as a rolling hitch of some
kind, maybe with a *guard* structure (turNip) preceding.


--dl*
====