Author Topic: Help identify this non-jamming, simple stopper  (Read 3092 times)

knot4u

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Help identify this non-jamming, simple stopper
« on: June 04, 2011, 06:25:42 PM »




http://www.seascout.org/about/program/knots/stevedores.html

That source mislabels the knot as a Stevedore.  It's a Figure Eight with the working end turned back into the first loop.  It's also like a short Timber Hitch tightened on itself.

I have tried with all my muscle to jam this knot.  It unties quite easily every time.  If there is no established name, then I propose "Timber Stopper".

EDIT:  Oops! Upon closer inspection, I see this knot is equivalent to the Stevedore if your reverse the label of "working end" and "standing end". How did I miss that!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stevedore_knot
« Last Edit: June 07, 2011, 11:36:55 PM by knot4u »

Dan_Lehman

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??? Re: Help identify this non-jamming, simple stopper
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2011, 07:03:33 PM »
http://www.seascout.org/about/program/knots/stevedores.html

That knot is mislabeled as a Stevedore.  ...
 It's a Figure Eight ...

FULL STOP, correct (at 13:42 USA-DST, which = 17:42 GMT, I think).

But thanks for the *still* captures, which indeed match your
description and the image shown on the site at a higher level.

Quote
... with the working end turned back into the first loop.
 It's also like a short Timber Hitch tightened on itself.

Which is NOT what I see --NOW (see time note above)--; perhaps your
citation led to correction?  Though of course it is now even more so
not a "Stevedore".

Which reminds me of a point that can be made about that
so-called "fig.8 & 1/2" (fig.9) : the fig.9 structure can be loaded
in the opposite direction (load opposite end to the usual),
and with the wrap of the one part around the now-tail
straightened out, so that the wrapping is now made by
the tail --and is tyable as Knot4U describes this (perhaps at one time)
cited knot in the OP, a simple fig.8 with the tail taking a 2nd
turn & tuck.

Although why would one want to do this?  Knot4U claims it mightily
resists jamming; the fig.8 should, as well (esp. in some common
applications).  One benefit possible from the Stevedore's knot
(a name, btw, said by CLDay to arise from the Stevedore rope company,
not --as imagined by knots-book authors-- from some use by such workers)
is that the wrapping around the SPart will prevent/resist loosening.
This benefit comes in flexible rope that is not terribly slippery.  The
knot, and especially the stopper face, isn't really significantly bulkier
than the fig.8 and overhand --prefer Ashley's stopper for that.

--dl*
====
« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 07:06:24 PM by Dan_Lehman »

knot4u

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Re: Help identify this non-jamming, simple stopper
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2011, 07:12:58 PM »
Oops, correction, it unties easily if you dress carefully!  If you just tie and yank, then it will probably go into a dressing the jams...weird!

Transminator

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Re: Help identify this non-jamming, simple stopper
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2011, 10:01:06 AM »
Mmmh
A Fig 8 with an extra half turn or an (incomplete) timber hitch with only two wraps?
Interesting. Its both! Therefore we can add the timber hitch to the list of Fig 8 based knots.

When I worked out the 6 knots for my "surrey six list", I was aware of the lack of a stopper
but then I asked myself which knot on my list could be used as such? I tied a timber hitch without
an object and found that it works beautifully. It is simple, bulky and does not jam.
If it works with only two wraps, all the better. For me the perfect stopper.

knot4u

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Re: Help identify this non-jamming, simple stopper
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2011, 05:58:35 PM »
If it works with only two wraps, all the better. For me the perfect stopper.

This knot with only two wraps is a joy to untie if you dress it slowly like you're tightening a Timber Hitch.  If you just wrap the working end around and yank both ends firmly, then you'll probably end up with a jam.  That's probably why this knot hasn't caught on.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2011, 11:36:26 PM by knot4u »

squarerigger

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Re: Help identify this non-jamming, simple stopper
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2011, 11:55:44 PM »
For DL:

Please supply a reference (page #, Chapter, book title, date) for this stated by you:

Quote
One benefit possible from the Stevedore's knot
(a name, btw, said by CLDay to arise from the Stevedore rope company,
not --as imagined by knots-book authors-- from some use by such workers)
Thanks,

SR

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Help identify this non-jamming, simple stopper
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2011, 08:29:22 PM »
For DL:

Please supply a reference (page #, Chapter, book title, date) for this stated by you:

Quote
One benefit possible from the Stevedore's knot
(a name, btw, said by CLDay to arise from the Stevedore rope company,
not --as imagined by knots-book authors-- from some use by such workers)
Thanks,

SR

!!  Wow, I'd think that CLDay's The Art of Knotting & Splicing, 4th ed. [1986]
would be the #2 book in your knotting library?  --maybe an earlier, & different edition?

It's that, and on p.40 --to wit:
Quote
[sic]
23. The Stevedore Knot is a temporary stopper knot.  It has no special
connection with stevedores or the work of stevedores.  The name originated
in a pamphlet issued about  1890 by the C. W. Hunt Company, which sold
rope under the trade name Stevedore.  It was subsequently adopted by the
dictionaries (Funk and Wagnall, 1893, Webster, 1909), engineers' handbooks
(Kent, Marks), and other works of reference, and it is now firmly established
in books, if not in the vocabulary of seamen.


--dl*
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knot4u

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Re: Help identify this non-jamming, simple stopper
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2011, 11:29:01 PM »
Oops! Upon closer inspection, I see the knot in the original post is equivalent to the Stevedore if you ignore which end is which.  In other words, reverse the labels of "working end" and "standing end", and then compare. How did I miss that!




Stevedore Knot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stevedore_knot
« Last Edit: June 07, 2011, 11:35:23 PM by knot4u »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Help identify this non-jamming, simple stopper
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2011, 06:34:47 AM »
Oops! Upon closer inspection, I see the knot in the original post is equivalent to the Stevedore if you ignore which end is which.  In other words, reverse the labels of "working end" and "standing end", and then compare. How did I miss that!

Good catch, but you missed it perhaps because it is NOT
(quite) the same as a Reversed Stevedore (other than in
topological equivalence) --the parts that wrap around or
are-wrapped-by differ : where A wraps B in the one, B
wraps A in the other (and so it is not merely some change
of direction by reversing loading).

--dl*
====