Surrey Six Challenge

[xarax]

would you mind expanding on the 'many good reasons' that you have against the Carrick, because I am finding it hard to find any.

   Oh, I realy do not know from which one to start !   I would say that the main reason is that this knot is, most of the tines, tied in a pre-collapsed state, and only then, afterwrds,  it is forced to collapse, in an entirely dissimilar, differently looking form. This abrupt tranformation would be magic, and great, if it transfigured something ugly to something beautiful, of course, but here it only does the exact opposite ! Come on, admit it, the Carrick is un ugly looking knot, at least compared to the beautiful, pre-collapse "base" it starts with. We have dozens of other bends, most of them secure, good looking and easy to tie. Just for an example, consider the "Violin", derived from a Dan Lehman more complex bend. (see (1), and attached pictures). You have to forget how to tie a Grief knot, to forget how to play/tie this Violin... And, contrary to the case of the Carrick, in that case the transfiguration, from the brrr twisted Grief knot to the mmm Violin, is a true metamorphosis of un ugly thing to a beautiful one !
    My point was less about your choice of including the overestimated Carrick, and more about your choice of ommiting the Zeppelin bend, and the bowline. It does not bothers me much when we overestimate something due to our traditional knot tyers conservatism, as to underestimate something of the highest value, as, first, the bowline, and, second, the Zeppelin bend.  

  This brings me around to your 'new' knot.  It does not look easy to tie, but you claim that it is.  So, can you please post your tying method here so we can judge its ease and memorability against the Carrick by the 'Fold, pull, poke' method

    I made yet anther effort to explain the veeery easy and memorizable method I use to tie this knot. (See (2)) However, there are more things to consider, when chosing a bend. For one thing, this "new" knot has the great merit of being most symmetrical, and beautiful,  more than even the Zeppelin bend ! ( as each link is point symmetric to itself).  But it might well have many shortcomings, that will keep it in the sidelines, as it s often the case with the so called "new" knots.

1) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2694.msg17155#msg17155
2) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3086.msg18601#msg18601

[Dan_Lehman]

I have to concede to the both of you, not in the choice of knots, but in the realisation of
 the overarching importance of one word

     DISINTERESTED

...
-- the real challenge is to break through that barrier of  DISINTEREST.

I was wondering how Knot4U understood this word, but it made sense
as he used it by the proper meaning --which is devoid of bias.
Alas, you seem to want to follow popular confusion of equating it
to "UNinterested", which is quite another matter.

Let's not corrupt the useful distinction.  A disinterested student is one
who will take the instruction without conflict, whereas an uninterested
one is, well, not much of a student at all.

--dl*
====

[knot4u]

I was using the second definition of "disinterested" from Dictionary.com:

2.  not interested;  indifferent.

 

=====

I believe this thread broke off from the other mentioned thread because we wanted to focus on "customers" who genuinely have no interest in knots.  We're not talking about about students ("student" implies at least some interest).  At least, that was the point of me suggesting this new thread.  Customers want to "buy" a knot just to get the job done.  They're buying a knot from you to complete that task.  If another tool works better and is available, then the customer would happily use the other tool without a second thought.  These people need knots to get a job done but have absolutely no intellectual curiosity about knots alone.  I find that about 90% of people in my daily life fall into the category of disinterested customer.

Crap...Do I need to start another thread?

[DerekSmith]

Hello Derek,

in regards to the searching for Willeke  there comes 12 pages with her name found, so I can't say what challenge you've got going on there. And a large amount of discussion concerning the Carrick family.

Scott

Hi Scott,

Willeke has a massive 34 pages logged to her credit.  I have painstakingly searched through them and found the post in question.  The issue was with my memory, not with the Search function.  Having re-read the post, I do not think it is going to be suitable to describe the fast Carrick tie method, so I think I will have to create it from fresh.

Derek

[xarax]

... can you please post your tying method here so we can judge its ease and memorability against the Carrick by the 'Fold, pull, poke' method.

   I have already presented my tying method in the original post, ( see (1) and (2)) , so I do not find it appropriate to repeat it, once more, here. However, I would be glad if you could present it in better wording than the mine, so we can compare the Carrick bend, and the "Carrick extinguisher" bend, on equal footing. Now you are going to re-phrase the Carrick bend tying method, you could possibly use a similar wording to describe the method used to tie the various bend presented in(1)), in general, and the "Carrick extinguisher" bend, in particular.
   The "Carrick extinguisher"  starts from yet a "simpler" loose knot "base", ( "simpler", as judged by its simpler 3D picture ), but it produces something more beautiful than its origin - not less, as Carrick does !

1) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3086.0

[Hrungnir]

Alpine Butterfly Bend Loop

1. > I find that one fiendishly difficult to tie, remember and dress correctly.

Perhaps, but in my opnion it's easier to learn and remember than the Zeppelin Loop. What will help you a lot is to see where the ends are coming in and out of the overhand knot. The working end will always enter at the same place and exit at the same place of the overhand knot  when tying the Butterfly Bend Loop.

A Bowline is pretty much a half hitch, up from the hole, round the tree and down the hole. Alpine Butterfly Bend Loop is an overhand knot, up from the hole, around the tree and up from the hole. Pretty much the same number of steps.

Alpine Butterfly Bend

2. > The tying method differs a lot, at least for me. the bend and loop, yes, but not the butterfly bend loop. The end structure and dressing is the same, yes, but getting there is a different matter.

Wrong. You can tie the Alpine Butterfly Bend in the exactly same way as the Alpine Butterfly Bend Loop. Another advantage is that you can tie it in the same way as the Alpine Butterfly loop too. You get three knots for two tying methods, where you can use both tying methods for the Bend.

Alpine Butterfly Loop

3. > I thought long about whether or not putting the butterfly loop in but eventually decided against it, because: you hardly ever need a midline loop (I think) but if you do, you can help yourself with an overhand on the bight. Therefore I did not want to use a precious slot for a midline loop.

As I've already introduced the Alpine Butterfly structure in the previous knots and can use the same tying method as the Bend, I've now got two new reasons for including this knot. I also listed a lot of other reasons and uses for the knot in my original post.

Reef Knot

4. > I personally would not want to waste a precious slot for it. you pointed out the shortcomings yourself.

If you assume the customer already knows the Granny, then I agree with you. I would have chosen another binder too. If the customer doesn't know the Granny, he/she will have a lot of tasks he/she can't solve without the Reef Knot.

Double Pile Hitch

5. > though the pile hitch is good, it is difficult to tie (and remember how to) without excess to the end of the object. If you want to tie it around a tree, you already have a problem.

The simple Pile Hitch is simple enough to tie around a tree. I do agree the Double Pile Hitch is a lot more confusing to tie when not having the end of the object available. I did however include the Tensionless Hitch which also has some gripping power.

[Dan_Lehman]

snip...

I was wondering how Knot4U understood this word, but it made sense
as he used it by the proper meaning --which is devoid of bias.
Alas, you seem to want to follow popular confusion of equating it
to "UNinterested", which is quite another matter.

Let's not corrupt the useful distinction.  A disinterested student is one
who will take the instruction without conflict, whereas an uninterested
one is, well, not much of a student at all.

--dl*
====

The prefix 'dis'  means 'the opposite' or 'not'.

I'm not gusted by this response.  Surely you don't learn your
words by such constructions.

In any case, you're fix-ated on the wrong part of the word;
the issue isn't the pre- but the suf-fix : interested --and the
interest lacking is that that could be counted as "vested" or not.

So someone who is disinterested is uninterested or not interested.
As a consequence of their lack of interest, a student might appear to have no bias ...
I must remember that Americans do not speak English.

Nevermind nationalist recollections, check the OED and read

"Not influenced by interests; impartial, unbiased, unprejudiced; now always
Unbiased by personal interest; free from self-seeking."

"disinterested" has long been a contentious word with the
loss of such distinction.  The sense has good application,
and "uninterested" serves another application amply well;
there is no need to double up with slopped expanded or
migrated senses.


 

[dmacdd]

Willeke has a massive 34 pages logged to her credit.  I have painstakingly searched through them and found the post in question.  The issue was with my memory, not with the Search function.  Having re-read the post, I do not think it is going to be suitable to describe the fast Carrick tie method, so I think I will have to create it from fresh.

Isn't this the method you're thinking of? : http://davidmdelaney.com/carrick-bend/carrick-bend-1439.html

It's pretty fast.

Even though I prefer the butterfly bend and the Zeppelin bend for pedagogical reasons, I find myself tying the Carrick bend often because I've known this method for 47 years, and it comes to my fingers without thinking. I even tie it in string!

[DerekSmith]

snip...

   Oh, I really do not know from which one to start !   I would say that the main reason is that this knot is, most of the tines, tied in a pre-collapsed state, and only then, afterwards,  it is forced to collapse, in an entirely dissimilar, differently looking form. This abrupt transformation would be magic, and great, if it transfigured something ugly to something beautiful, of course, but here it only does the exact opposite ! Come on, admit it, the Carrick is an ugly looking knot, at least compared to the beautiful, pre-collapse "base" it starts with.

 snip...

I apologise in advance for going off topic here, but could not resist the opportunity.

Thank you for bringing this up Xarax, it is yet another example of why I believe that decorative weaves such as the Carrick mat are not knots - they are unstable, dis-functional weaves and do not deserve the appellation of KNOT.

The amazing thing about the Carrick though is that this pretty decorative weave is also capable of transforming under tension into a highly functional and truly excellent knot.  Indeed, its chameleonesque ability goes even further - if you make the Carrick bend in wildly different thickness of cord it transforms into yet another form with equal voracity to hold and the same resistance to jam.

It is said that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I find the form and function of the Carrick Knot to be just as beautiful as many find the pretty little decorative Carrick Weave.

Derek

[DerekSmith]

Willeke has a massive 34 pages logged to her credit.  I have painstakingly searched through them and found the post in question.  The issue was with my memory, not with the Search function.  Having re-read the post, I do not think it is going to be suitable to describe the fast Carrick tie method, so I think I will have to create it from fresh.

Isn't this the method you're thinking of? : http://davidmdelaney.com/carrick-bend/carrick-bend-1439.html

It's pretty fast.

Even though I prefer the butterfly bend and the Zeppelin bend for pedagogical reasons, I find myself tying the Carrick bend often because I've known this method for 47 years, and it comes to my fingers without thinking. I even tie it in string!

No, it is even easier than this, and 'flows' better.

I am getting a series of photos ready to post.

Derek

[xarax]

  The amazing thing about the Carrick though is that this pretty decorative weave is also capable of transforming under tension into a highly functional and truly excellent knot.

   I agree on this : you have stated the, one-and-only, good reason in favour of the Carrick bend !  

  The prefix 'dis'  means 'the opposite' or 'not'.  

   However, I am afraid I do not agree with this, but, I do not dis-agree !  

   See: English words prefixed with dis- :
   http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:English_words_prefixed_with_dis-
   A "proof" , dis-like it or not : the word : undisprovable  .

[Sweeney]

At the risk of prolonging this the Oxford English dictionary makes it clear that disinterested means impartial or not biased whereas uninterested means having no interest ie not bothered at all. That said it also recognises that in recent years the word disinterested has become commonplace as meaning the same as uninterested - an example of the sloppy use of language taking over. Although in some cases the difference between the two is marginal there are times when the use of disinterested in its correct context is important. To describe a boxing referee as uninterested is tantamount to an insult; disinterested is potentially a compliment.

To relate this to knots I could say I am disinterested in the use of the butterfly bend or the Zeppelin bend ie I have no bias toward one or the other - I favour them both equally - but if I were uninterested then I couldn't care less about either. In the context of choosing 6 knots it really doesn't matter - but being careful about using the right word is a useful habit for the time when it does matter.

Barry

[squarerigger]

Well said Barry,,

Derek - might we have some facility with English after all?
<grin>

Lindsey

[xarax]

might we have some facility with English after all?<grin>

   Do I have to remind you guys, that the battle of Yorktown is over ? 

[squarerigger]

No problems,

I am English and have found it QUITE fascinating (and educative) to learn the usage of the language in the USA.  To quote the first person ever to have shown me by example "There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy...." [Hamlet, Act 1, Scene V]

SR