Author Topic: Surrey Six Challenge  (Read 23847 times)

knot4u

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Re: Surrey Six Challenge
« Reply #45 on: June 07, 2011, 03:02:14 AM »
At least Americans don't have to buy into the whole annoying royal family nonsense.  :P

squarerigger

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Re: Surrey Six Challenge
« Reply #46 on: June 07, 2011, 03:17:01 AM »
Hi Knot,

No, that is true - but somehow the paparazzi still find a ready sale point for their wares regarding the Royal family in the tabloid magazines that line the checkout counters of the grocery stores and liquor stores!  Human nature being what it is in some, there will always, I might suppose, a place for such sales.... :P

SR

Hrungnir

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Re: Surrey Six Challenge
« Reply #47 on: June 07, 2011, 06:14:29 AM »
Unless you've served your king and country in the army, you would probably never understand what the royal family is.

But it would be nice if we could continue this discussion on topic - The Surrey Six Replacement ;)

aknotter

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Re: Surrey Six Challenge
« Reply #48 on: June 07, 2011, 06:43:42 PM »
Yall aint heard nuthin til you go down south!!!   (I'm from South America - - - Alabama!)
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Surrey Six Challenge
« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2011, 08:10:22 PM »
...
3. Timber hitch (very simple, surprisingly secure, can be tied under load (especially in combination with a round turn), easily untied and has some resistance for lengthwise pull as well, stopper> tie timber hitch without an object)
...

This just caught my eye :  :o   ::)

How does one tie a timber hitch under load?!

("not well" (vs. "knot well"!  :D ) )

Arborists use this knot regualarly, but with caution and some
anecdotal evidence that the "surprising" thing about it is that
it doesn't always hold so well (catching a drop).

--dl*
====

Transminator

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Re: Surrey Six Challenge
« Reply #50 on: June 08, 2011, 10:02:08 AM »
How does one tie a timber hitch under load?!

Same as the round turn and two half hitches.
The only difference is that you have to thread the end through 3 times in place of the first half hitch.
The former certainly better suited for this, but it is possible (especially in combination with 1 or more round turns)

Arborists use this knot regualarly, but with caution and some
anecdotal evidence that the "surprising" thing about it is that
it doesn't always hold so well (catching a drop).

Sure, the timber hitch has certain drawbacks.
I picked it for my list because of its versatility, simpleness and relatively good security.
It can be made more secure with further wraps but that does not, of cause, solve the root cause.
For critical use or permanent hitch, one can use the zeppelin in combination with a round turn as a hitch.

If not restricted to six knots, one would use different hitches for different purposes.
Whenever I need a quick hitch, I usually go for the siberian, for its ease of tying.

TMCD

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Re: Surrey Six Challenge
« Reply #51 on: June 08, 2011, 12:02:27 PM »
The Timber Hitch is suspect unless you tie at least one half hitch around the log...I just towed several good size limbs from my front yard to the back of the property using the Killick Hitch(timber hitch/half hitch), it holds well. I tried the timber hitch alone, and it spilled completely....the half hitch actually keeps it stable.

Transminator

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Re: Surrey Six Challenge
« Reply #52 on: June 08, 2011, 03:34:18 PM »
The Timber Hitch is suspect unless you tie at least one half hitch around the log...I just towed several good size limbs from my front yard to the back of the property using the Killick Hitch(timber hitch/half hitch), it holds well. I tried the timber hitch alone, and it spilled completely....the half hitch actually keeps it stable.

For lengthwise pull (dragging logs) yes. The Killick is much better suited for this, as it also gives you the advantage of tying the timber hitch further away from the end of the log and the half hitch close to the end. But it works fine for right angle load. When dragging logs its also important to make the tucks in such a way the the knot gets tighter in the direction of pull, as Roo pointed out on the timber hitch page of the notable knot index.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Surrey Six Challenge
« Reply #53 on: June 08, 2011, 06:39:12 PM »
How does one tie a timber hitch under load?!

Same as the round turn and two half hitches.
The only difference is that you have to thread the end through 3 times in place of the first half hitch.
The former certainly better suited for this, but it is possible (especially in combination with 1 or more round turns)

Not at all "the same" : the venerable (round turn &) two half-hitches is a noose hitch
--a hitch tied to the structure's SPart, and something that can be done
under tension, albeit not necessarily set without yielding some length
in adjustment.
But the timber hitch is a proper *hitch* with tucked parts running
against the hitched object --something one cannot readily
do with tension on part to be "dogged" (tucked under).  Indeed,
preferably, the final tuck(s) will be towards the SPart's entry,
to receive greatest nipping pressure.


Quote
Arborists use this knot regualarly, but with caution and some
anecdotal evidence that the "surprising" thing about it is that
it doesn't always hold so well (catching a drop).

Sure, the timber hitch has certain drawbacks.

It remains a mystery as to these anecdotal failures, some by
tyers who should be doing a pretty decent job of making
enough (seemingly!) tucks and across a good span of rope.
Could it be some bit of potential magic of friction (lessening)
from a surge of force on the tucked bight --an initiated and
thus continuing slippage got by "shock" ?!  And maybe
something precluded or greatly mitigated by taking a full
turn before dogging the tail (which also can provide some
friction-hitch-like gripping to keep the set knot from loosening
when slack) ?

Quote
I picked it for my list because of its versatility, ...

It's a spar & pile hitch, but not a ring hitch; there is that much
of a limitation on its versatility.  (In contrast, a clove hitch
--especially when stoppered-- can serve across this range
(which asks a lot of a knot!).)

Quote
For critical use or permanent hitch, one can use the zeppelin in combination with a round turn as a hitch.

The way in "zeppelin" pops up in so many places, and especially
lists of basic knots such as this, betrays an armchair appraisal of
knotting.  For a (semi-)permanent hitch one will typically want
something that turns the fully loaded SPart around a hard-smooth
object (in that common circumstance).  One can see some easy
adjustments to the fig.8-based noose-hitches just posted by Xarax
for knots that would do this well (and still yield to untying effort).
Whereas interceding with force and hitch with some eyeknot will
then see repeated load cycles wearing rope-vs-rope in that knot,
which I think will be much quicker deterioration of material.


  -  -  -  -  -  -  -

Quote
... the Killick Hitch(timber hitch/half hitch), it holds well.

Let me object to calling this structure by this name : I surmise that
the (true) Killick (Killeg, ...) hitch which is given a history of having
bound commercial fishing lines to stones is (was) actually
a cow hitch with the tail dogged for security --a knot that
draws up rather snugly and with a suitable jamming, perhaps
aided by shrinkage of wet natural-fibre (or nylon!) rope.
This is a surmise from the given historical use & origin.

Spreading out that knot into two halves is moving to something
different, a compound structure as you've described.

(ABOK is seemingly amply supportive of seeing the knot as you
--and many other sources (echoes)-- present it, but the context
of the structure at #271 ("Occupational Knots") and its stated use
(along with #272, the slingstone hitch ) strongly suggest that
there is a jamming knot, not a loose half-hitch.  For this, I will note
that the **cow** orientation of this half-hitch to the timber
makes a better jamming structure than does the **clove**; but if
they are to be spaced apart --as for use on timber-- the difference
of orientation doesn't matter.)


Quote
I tried the timber hitch alone, and it spilled completely....the half hitch actually keeps it stable.

 ???

Can you elaborate, please?  I'd think that the main issue with
using only the timber hitch would be possible slippage up
the spar, which, needing the knot to be proximate an end,
for the sake of steering control, would risk it pulling off.
But ... spilling?!  Sure, there's more load on the knot,
but the hitch should nip & grip & hold.  Any thoughts
on the mechanics involved to loosen it?  --how many tucks?
(and over what span of rope?)


--dl*
====

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Surrey Six Challenge
« Reply #54 on: June 08, 2011, 07:31:19 PM »
1.  Sheet Bend
2.  Bowline
3.  Reef
4.  Figure 8
5.  Roundturn and Three Half Hitches
6.  Bight Slip (Yes, I'm using a precious slot for this so I don't cheat.)

That would be my six if I were teaching an average, disinterested "customer".

Let's settle on our target audience (this "disinterested" party)
being >>not interested in becoming Ace Knot Tyer<<,
and pretty much >>not knowing any knots<< .  I think
that this is better than "uninterested", for they of course
have to be willing to listen and try to learn --but they are
presumed giving us limited attention, readily turned off if
the instruction gets *deep* & esoteric ... .  Fair enough?

I'm struck by "bight slip" --by which I take to mean the
common finishing a knot with a "slip-tuck"/"slip-bight",
for (supposed) easy untying.

And I'm frustrated by coming to terms with the limitations that
this sort of "six knots" challenge imposes:  is it to be taken in
a quite strict sense, or can it be understood more loosely,
perhaps to instructing on movements & shapes --e.g., that
teaching the overhand stopper AT LEAST gets one
a bonus of the overhand eyeknot which is after all just
the same movement of cordage but with a bight vice single line?

And back to Knot4U's "bight slip" : here, with the latter
thinking (looser stricture), I'd suggest then the slip-knot,
as that structure at least can be used qua noose (simply switching
the function of the ends) and as a component for the trucker's
hitch
(also in both ways, one using a 'biner, say) !  And we have
therein also introduced the notion of "bight slip" along the way,
which even if not allowed to be counted in the knots-count,
seeds that notion as "an exercise left to the student."

Beyond this can come some other things,
but the slip-knot can be a nice finishing to the clove hitch
--provided our strictures allow this combination of taught
movements to come without cost of the knots-count.
Ashley's stopper might also be seen to be within reach.

--dl*
====

Transminator

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Re: Surrey Six Challenge
« Reply #55 on: June 09, 2011, 08:45:11 AM »
But the timber hitch is a proper *hitch* with tucked parts running
against the hitched object --something one cannot readily
do with tension on part to be "dogged" (tucked under).  Indeed,
preferably, the final tuck(s) will be towards the SPart's entry,
to receive greatest nipping pressure.

In theory yes, but in practise no!
What happens in practice is that you tuck the end through at the same gap in which
you tuck the half hitch, only 3 times instead of one. When you then let go
of the load, the not yet tightend hitch revolves around the object
until that gap disappears and voila, the end is tucked under the SPart and pressed against the hitched object.

I never claimed this is a good solution and if the hitched object is square or rough, the above might not work at all
but it can be done and I tried it successfully. Would I use a different hitch when not restricted to the 6 knots?
Of course. But this is what this thread is supposed to be about. To find a solution for most scenarios by only using these 6 knots.
This will inevitably lead to solutions that are not ideal.

It's a spar & pile hitch, but not a ring hitch; there is that much
of a limitation on its versatility.  (In contrast, a clove hitch
--especially when stoppered-- can serve across this range
(which asks a lot of a knot!).)

You point out the one it cannot satisfactorily perform. This needs to be compared with the list of things it can perform.
If you look closer at my list, you also find the constrictor, which can be used as a ring hitch and is more secure then the clove.
If you have another hitching problem that the mentioned two cannot solve, you find yet another one on my list, the (gripping) sailor's hitch.

The way in "zeppelin" pops up in so many places, and especially
lists of basic knots such as this, betrays an armchair appraisal of
knotting.  For a (semi-)permanent hitch one will typically want
something that turns the fully loaded SPart around a hard-smooth
object (in that common circumstance).  One can see some easy
adjustments to the fig.8-based noose-hitches just posted by Xarax
for knots that would do this well (and still yield to untying effort).
Whereas interceding with force and hitch with some eyeknot will
then see repeated load cycles wearing rope-vs-rope in that knot,
which I think will be much quicker deterioration of material.

We are talking about a list of 6 knots here out of which you have to
find a "solution" for most scenarios. Yet again you are making the mistake
of criticising a viable solution by pointing out that there are better options,
that it has shortcomings and so on. Of course it has. This particular option
of using the zeppeling loop (in combination with one (or more) round turn(s))
as a hitch is one solution one can construct with this "bare essential" list of 6 knots and
has nothing to do with armchair appraisal of knotting. The surrey six
do exactly the same thing with the figure 8. Since I do not have the figure 8 on my list,
I point out that one can use the zeppelin loop in the same way.

Why don't you post your 6 knots so we can scrutinize whether
one can find a viable solution for any sort of knotting problem by only using those 6?
Well?

DerekSmith

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Re: Surrey Six Challenge
« Reply #56 on: June 09, 2011, 06:31:18 PM »
Perhaps at this conjuncture we could do with a 'Test Set' of applications against which our average disinterested user might sensibly attempt to make use of the six knots they have been taught.

We could then all attempt to use the various proposed knots and see which ones we find to score the highest for a number of parameters.

Perhaps score out of five 0= crap -  5 = perfection for;

Ease of tying
Ease of untying
Getting it right
Speed
Simplicity
...?

Here are some applications we might consider to make into the test set -

Strap a bunch of kindling
Strap a bunch of bamboo canes
Tie a tow cable to a log to tow it
Tie a cable to a pole to pull (lever it) out of the ground
Tie up a pony to a rail
Tie up a dingy to a ring
Hang a ring on a vertical scaffold pole
Hang tinnies or bottle in water to cool them
Tie a tow rope to a car tow ring
Secure a bike to a car rack
Tension a fly sheet
Stop a cut rope from fraying
Secure the bottom of a ladder from slipping (no one to foot it)
Temporary dog leash
...?

Derek

xarax

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Re: Surrey Six Challenge
« Reply #57 on: June 09, 2011, 07:25:05 PM »
Here are some applications we might consider to make into the test set -

   I believe that the knots one knows determine which, and how many, applications one can discover for them in everyday life, and not the opposite. So, a "test set" should be, for our uninterested or disinterested customer, not to solve a number of pre-set applications with a number of pre-known knots,, but to discover (new) applications where the (new) knots can be applied. Then we will see which, and how many, applications our customer has discovered, and how well he managed to apply the new (for him) knots, with the new (for him) applications of (those) knots. If I will see a customer that uses a new (to him) knot he has learnt to solve a new (to him) problem, a problem that had never before crossed his mind that it can be solved with knots, then I will be sure that the initial selection was successful.
   In short, the learning of the use of tools, at the end of the day, is succesful not when it comes after pre-existing problems, but when it leads to discoveries we had never imagined before.
This is not a knot.

Hrungnir

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Re: Surrey Six Challenge
« Reply #58 on: June 09, 2011, 09:26:09 PM »
Here are some applications we might consider to make into the test set -
I do enjoy reading these lists of "when to use which knot". The presented problem, solving the problem and reading other forum members solutions are quite educational.

We are however reduced to a limited number of knots (six), and finding practical problems will introduce us to a wide specter of knotting material. Fishing lines, webbings, clothing, bandages, twine and different types of rope (natural, synthetic fibers etc).

Making a list of practical problems will also highly reflect the author of the list. How many people do have interest of tying a temporary dog leash? My guess is only those who is a dog owner. Same thing about boat and car, but more people owns a car than a boat, which makes car knots more relevant?

First aid is something that concerns everyone, but I very seldom see people mentioning first aid knots as relevant for a list of knots. Be able to throw a rope end to some helpless guy in the water. Using rope to secure yourself when swimming to help a drowning person, or lower yourself, a person or equipment down a cliff to help someone. Tie a compression bandage. Splint a broken foot. Make a stretcher.

There are also simpler tasks which presents themselves far more often:  making a lanyard for your sunglasses, tying a sweater around your waist, a stopper for your sewing thread, close a bag and binding together small stuff (to be able to carry more at once).

I also agrees with xarax that it's easier to see a knotting problem when you already know how to solve it ;)

knot4u

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Re: Surrey Six Challenge
« Reply #59 on: June 10, 2011, 12:47:46 AM »
Perhaps at this conjuncture we could do with a 'Test Set' of applications against which our average disinterested user might sensibly attempt to make use of the six knots they have been taught...

I think you're on to something, but I want to take that idea a step further.  Just to be clear, let's assume we're providing knots for the "disinterested customer".  I could imagine a list of regular applications that are not too specialized (e.g., not rappelling).  Under each application would be 1 recommended knot for that application.  So, the disinterested customer could look up the application that is closest to what he's doing and find the knot.

That's an order of magnitude better than doing things the other way around - seeing the list of knots, reading about each knot and then trying to figure out which knot to use.  Imagine if a "disinterested customer" were looking for a knot to tighten the lines on a tent.  He could see a picture of a Blake Hitch and pass right by it because he doesn't know any better, figures it's too complicated, etc.  In contrast, if the disinterested customer first sees the application he wants, then he is more likely to gather enough motivation to focus on how to use the recommended knot to get the job done.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 01:05:47 AM by knot4u »