Author Topic: Interlocking overhand knots  (Read 12696 times)

xarax

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Interlocking overhand knots
« on: May 24, 2011, 02:03:51 AM »
   Two simple, interesting and good looking bends, by interlocking overhand knots. ( For another, more complex bend, by interlocking re-tucked overhand knots, see (1)). It is always pleasantly surprising to me, to (re)discover different dressings of the same simple rope tangles. Just a few rope twists can generate so many species of knots...

1). http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1919.msg16396#msg16396

P.S. 2011-10-31 : The bend "B" is identical with the B 25 bend, named "Illusion", by Roger E. Miles : Symmetric bends. (How to Join Two Lengths of Cord), 1995. (p. 94, p.113)
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 04:51:32 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Interlocking overhand knots
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2011, 06:29:27 AM »
As the OP's knot-A looked to be, possibly, a viable offset
end-2-end joint --something desired for joining abseil lines--,
I tried in in a pair of similarly but differently sized ropes.
.:.  I don't like the amount of *movement* & *flow* I saw
in the parts of the knot; also, it lost some of the beneficial
offset aspect as the SParts were drawn away from each other.

(The other knot --"B"-- hasn't interested me enough to venture
into its tying.  "A" was enough work in tying & dressing.)

--dl*
====

xarax

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Re: Interlocking overhand knots
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2011, 03:50:04 PM »
   The A knot is difficult to dress, and it should be tightened / inspected-dressed / tightened again a number of  times in order to be settled to a symmetric final form. I always use same diameter ropes for end-of-the-line bends. I arrived at it after the B knot, manipulating the paths of the strands into the knot s nub. I have not seen it anywhere, and this was a good reason for me to publish it, such a "simple" knot as it is . ( At the end of the day, it is still nothing more than another two interlocked overhand knots bend !)
   The B knot is even more symmetric / useful ? I am sure it must be already known, but I myself do not remember to have tied or seen it anywhere. It presents the front/back face symmetry that is so pleasant / helpful when we inspect a knot. ( Leaving some other things aside, I personally prefer the Zeppelin bend from the Hunter s bend, just because of this symmetry   :)). I believe that the B knot bend is one of the simplest and more symmetric bends I know, with satisfactory wide first curves, and a "stable" form ( compared to Matthew Walker or Rusty bends, for example ) I will certainly incorporate this bend in the Knots War tests I plan - along so many others few peope seem to care about ...:)   
This is not a knot.

xarax

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Re: Interlocking overhand knots
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2011, 07:25:45 AM »
   I think I now have a simpler method tto tie the A and B bends posted earlier - as well as some other interesting bends belonging to this thread. We start from two linked single turn loops, as shown in the first attached picture. ( There are many ways to inter-link two single turn loops, but, for the time being, we will use only this specific one, shown in the picture ). We label the 7 "black holes"  :) shown there by their relative position : upper left (uL), upper right (uR), lower left (lL), lower right (lR), left (L), right (R) and centre (C). We only have to follow the labels, pass the working end of each one of the two loops through the indicated  hole, and so complete each one of the two overhand knots. Notice that the first label describes the path of the left (orange in the pictures) working end, and the second label the path of the right (white in the pictures) working end.
    I have tied all the possible combinations produced by this method, looking for interesting, symmetric bends. The following were the best I have met, but I may well have overlooked something. The interested reader is advised to explore the method by himself. It is easier than it sounds !   
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xarax

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Re: Interlocking overhand knots
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2011, 04:57:58 AM »
   I had hoped that my presentation at (1) was lucid enough, but I may be wrong. I will try to describe the easily memorizable method I use for tying those bends one more time, with other words.
   This method comes in two steps : first, we build a loose knot "base", and then, using this base, we tie the final bend, driving the two working ends of the two links of the bend through the appropriate, indicated paths of the loose knot base.
   Imagine two inter-linked half-turn bights in a 3D space configuration, like two rope-made links of a chain. Moreover, imagine those links laying  in two planes, the one vertical and one other horizontal. (see the first two attached pictures). Notice the specific relative position of the standing and working ends in this configuration. We will return to this later on.
    In each link, the standing end and the working end are crossed at a point.  Hold the two inter-linked bights by those points: hold the first link with the thumb and index finger of the one hand, keeping its plane vertical, and the second link with the thumb and index finger of the other hand, keeping its plane horizontal.
    Rotate 90 degrees any of the two links, rotating the wrist of any of the two hands, in a counter-clockwise direction. Doing this, the 3D space shape becomes a 2D one. Now, look at this shape from the "front" side: it is the side where the shape of the two interlinked bights looks like the "symmetric" shape at picture #3. That means two things :
   1. The working end ( and the standing end ) of each link should be shown to leave the loose knot towards OPPOSITE directions, in relation to the working end  ( and the standing end ) of the other link.
   2. The working end of each link should be shown to pass OVER the standing end, in both links.
   That is the knot "base" on which we weave the final bend.
   We can see those 7 "black holes"  :) in this shape. I label them conveniently, as they are shown in the picture s frame: upper Left (uL), lower Left (lL), upper Right (uR), lower Right (lR),  Left (L), Right (R)), and Centre (C).
   From that point, you just have to pass the working end of each one of the two links, through the specific "hole" indicated  by the label of the bend, thus completing each one of the two interlinked overhand knots. The labels that should be followed to tie a particular knot are written in a certain order : the first indicate the "hole" from which we should pass the working end of the first, left link, and the second indicate the "hole" from which we should pass the working end of the second, right link  Fot example :  In the lR - uL bend, we have, first, to pass the working end of the first., left link through the lower, Right hole (lR) , and then, we have to pass the working end of the second, right link, through the upper Left hole (uL).(See attached picture)  
   Forming the shape, it is better not to have too narrow, or two wide "holes". The knot is tied easier, if we leave just the minimum required room for the working end o pass through: one rope diameter. Doing this, the subsequent dressing of the knot becomes much easier, and unambiguous. ( Note: In the attached picture of the loose lR-uL bend, the "holes"are left wider, only for presentation purposes)
   I hope I offered some (almost  :)) comprehensible written instructions for the tying of this beautiful, most symmetric bend. Of course, - as it always happens in the case of verbal instructions for tying knots , the words are not enough, or they are too much, and they tend to  confuse/ perplex the reader, more than to help him !The pictures are telling the most of what has to be told here. The interested reader is kindly requested to ask me any question, and, also, if he wishes, to teach me how I could better describe this method, so it becomes more comprehensible and memorizable - or even how to tie those knots using another, different, and possibly better way.

1) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3086.msg18494#msg18494
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 09:10:23 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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Re: Interlocking overhand knots
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2011, 09:17:33 PM »
   Yet another picture of the (loosened) lR-uL bend, which can be easily tied with the method described in (1) and (2). One can readily follow the path(s) of the rope(s) into the knot s nub, and see the apparent symmetry of the whole configuration.

1) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3086.msg18494#msg18494
2) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3086.msg18601#msg18601
This is not a knot.

xarax

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Re: Interlocking overhand knots
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2011, 10:28:35 PM »
how to tie those knots using another, different, and possibly better way.

   The first thing an interested reader might ask, is about the obvious : why I just do not describe the loose knot "base" I use for those bends simply, as an "inter-linked 6 and 9 (or p and q)" configuration ? The answer is simple, too. I do not know !  :) The truth is thatI I have chosen to present my method as a method similar to the classic Carrick bend tying method, because I was more interested to compare those two loose knot "bases"- and, also, to show that the "base " I start is even simpler, and more beautiful, than Carrick s. AND to show what is most important, starting from those two bases, the lR-uL bend is more symmetric and beautiful, while the Carrick bend is less. ( I would even go as far as to characterize Carrick bend as "ugly"!)
   The 6 and 9 (or p and q) method produces some of the most interesting bends we know, and, among them, the best of all, the Zeppelin bend. I could nt possibly dare to compare the lR-uL bend with the Zeppelin bend, but it comes close !  :) It is even more symmetrical, in a way, than the Zeppelin bend, because, in a certain pre-loaded dressing, each of the two links is point symmetric to itself. (See attached pictures)
   So, if the reader wishes to chose a field where there are viable, strong competitors, the 6 and 9 (or p and q) method is more appropriate. If he wishes to feel the satisfaction of an easy win, the Carrick bend loose bend "base" method is preferable.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 11:23:34 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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8 Interlocking overhand knots symmetric bends
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2011, 02:12:33 PM »
   I have deleted some previous posts, to present here, again, in a more ordered way, all the interlocking-overhand-knots symmetric bends produced by the 8 possible *  combinations of moves, on the same "base"- together with some interesting dressing variations. The interested reader who would possibly discover some other stable and interesting dressings, is kindly requested to report them to me, so I would be able to complete this presentation.

  * Because this method produces the same knot for the uR-lL and the oSE,R  - oSE,L conbination, we have, in fact, 7 , in total, distinct bends.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 05:49:51 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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1: lR - uL . 2 : oSE,lR - oSE,uL .
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2011, 02:35:19 PM »
1: lR - uL
2: oSE,lR - oSE,uL

P.S. 2011-10-31 : The bend IR -uL is identical with the B 25 bend, named "Illusion", by Roger E. Miles : Symmetric bends. (How to Join Two Lengths of Cord), 1995. (p. 94, p.113)
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 04:54:19 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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3. uR-lL, variations A and B
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2011, 02:38:47 PM »
3. uR-lL , variations A and B
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 04:13:30 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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4. oSE,uR - oSE
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2011, 02:43:01 PM »
4. oSE,uR - oSE,lL
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 04:15:31 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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5: R - L . 6: oSE,R - oSE, L
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2011, 02:45:59 PM »
5: R - L
6: oSE,R - oSE, L

P.S. 2011-10-30 : The bend R - L is identical with the B 24 bend, named "Rhomb  bend", by Roger E. Miles : Symmetric bends. (How to Join Two Lengths of Cord), 1995. (p. 94, p.113). See also D. Mandeville, Knotting Matters 29, 1989, 6-13.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 04:40:03 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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7: C - C . 8: oSE,C - oSE,C
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2011, 02:49:54 PM »
7: C - C
8: oSE,C - oSE,C
This is not a knot.

roo

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Re: Interlocking overhand knots
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2011, 03:20:27 PM »
Since you are posting this in the Practical Knot forum, what are the properties of these latest knots that make you see them as practical, and not just decorative or "good-looking"?
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 03:22:16 PM by roo »
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roo

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Re: Interlocking overhand knots
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2011, 04:17:18 PM »
Since you are posting this in the Practical Knot forum, what are the properties of these latest knots that make you see them as practical, and not just decorative or "good-looking"?
  Your repetitive claim, that my knots are decorative, run the danger of the boy that cried "wolf !". ( In any of the three variations of this myth - I have told you where to read the original text, for you to decide which specific variation you prefer...) A repetitive claim, is, after a number of times, either "fancy" or "decorative", and should be better posted in the relevant "Fancy and Decorative Knots " forum. I admire your persistence ! ( Although it might have a therapeutic purpose...in that case, I am sorry, and I have nothing more to say.)
    
I'm not claiming anything.  I'm asking a question.  There is a difference.  If you are annoyed by questions of practicality in a Practical Knot forum, the question will not arise in the Chit Chat forum or the Knot Theory forum or the Fancy and Decorative Knotwork forum.

Translating via Google (I don't speak your native tongue):
Δεν είμαι διεκδίκηση τίποτα. Ρωτάω μια ερώτηση. Υπάρχει μια διαφορά. Αν είστε ενοχλούνται από ερωτήσεις του πρακτικότητα σε ένα φόρουμ Πρακτικές Knot, το ζήτημα δεν θα προκύψει στο forum Κουβεντούλα ή το Knot Θεωρία forum ή το Fancy και Διακοσμητικά Knot φόρουμ.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 04:33:26 PM by roo »
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