Author Topic: Midspan bends.  (Read 41645 times)

dfred

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Re: Midspan bends.
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2011, 08:38:10 PM »
   Nice knot, dfred, very nice indeed, the first one you have presented. It IS based on the bowline,  :), although in an indirect way, but that is not the issue here. It would be great if you test it and compare it with the "midline bowline".

Thanks very much.  I was pleased when I came across it.  Given how little there is to it I'd be very surprised if it's not already known.  Seems useful perhaps for the edge of a net-like structure.    The simpler first form seems to be sufficient for just about all the rope I've tried it on, so long as it is drawn-up snug before loading.

As far as the bowline/sheetbend relation...  If one withdraws the final tuck of the simple form, it is really one of the so-called "single" carrick bends (e.g. #1445).   I can't find a B/SB structure in there.  The flow of the line through the loop is always in the same direction, opposite to what one would expect in a B/SB structure.  To use the famous bunny analogy: in the knot I pictured the bunny is coming out of the hole, going around something and coming out of the hole again, rather than going back into the hole at any point...

BTW, I did actually present another knot, quite a while ago.   

xarax

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Re: Midspan bends.
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2011, 12:30:31 PM »
   
As far as the bowline... relation...I can't find a B... structure in there.

  You can " beef up"  the hitch in many more interesting ways, as you have noticed, so it will not run the danger of sliding on the main line.
  Those turn(s) around the main line, can they be considered as collar-like structures, or not ? If not, I have to agree that there is no bowline structure in there, because I believe that the essential elements of the bowlines are the nipping loop AND the collar.
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knot4u

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Re: Midspan bends.
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2011, 05:44:22 PM »
Interlocking Clove Hitches...if the bend doesn't have to be untied

I'm talking about interlocking the double loop of each Clove Hitch through each other, nothing fancy.

Features:
-Need access to only one end
-Can be pulled in any direction with any combination of end(s)
-Secure even even while capsized, as long as it's somewhat tight
-Doesn't seem to have a natural dressing
-Jams (or seems like it will anyway)
-Has worked with some amount of difference in rope
-May work with any amount of difference in rope
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 06:10:47 PM by knot4u »

knot4u

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Re: Midspan bends.
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2011, 06:48:55 PM »
Simple options that aren't jam-prone...

Sheet Bend, the regular version (NOT the midspan version http://notableknotindex.webs.com/midspan.html)

Sheet Bend, Water Bowline version
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 08:29:18 PM by knot4u »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Midspan bends.
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2011, 06:56:41 AM »
  In the "midline bowline", any, or even all, of the ends, except the second collar's tail, can be loaded at once.

This makes no sense, for the 1st-shown & symmetric knot : there is no
distinction between "tails", as such.

Quote
Please describe an application that involves pulling any and/or all ends, in any direction.

The OP's knot was presented in the 1928 Alpine Journal by Wright & Magowan
as a middleman's tie-in knot --possible loading of the attachment against
either or both of the tied-to line's ends.  Another multi-loading application
is netting (which tends to add some constraints), and the common
net-knot has a sheet-bend/... form.

Quote
The snoods are attached on the longline by means of such midspan / midline knots. However, many of those knots can be tied only with/on very slippery fishing lines, and most of them are similar to many-coil friction hitches. With ropes, the fishing knots I am aware of are not effective, or are too complex and bulky.

Lobster-pot snoods are tied on with any of a clove, ground-line, ossel
hitch
(and variations), with the tail tucked through the lay of the
ground-line once or more times.  These knots are pulled up through
the pot-hauler's V-grooved wheel compressing the knots.  (See the
photos in "Knots in the Wild".)

--dl*
====

xarax

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Re: Midspan bends.
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2011, 05:07:28 PM »
   The OP's knot was presented in the 1928 Alpine Journal by Wright & Magowan
as a middleman's tie-in knot --possible loading of the attachment against
either or both of the tied-to line's ends. 

   Thank you, Dan Lehman. I was finally able to get a copy of this article, through a friend of mine, that got it from from a friend of his, that got it from you ! :) Nice find, although of a different knot !  :)
   I see that the "two way hitch" presented there - of which I was not aware of - (see attached picture) is different from all the three variations that I have posted in this thread. There is a simple reason for it, that I will try to explain. I wanted a "mid-line bend" that was able to withstand even a lengthwise pull of the attached line, so I made sure that the free end of this line remain as near the point where the ends of the nipping loop touch each other, and as near the axis of the main line, as possible ( see the pictures of this thread, and espesially the first one, where, due to symmetry, this even happens for both ends ). On the contrary, in the "two way hitch" of Wright and Magowan, the free ends leave the nipping loop as far from this point and the axis of the mainline as possible !  :) I am afraid that, doing this, when we pull the free end(s) from certain directions, we ran the danger to disturb and disfigure the whole knot s nub - with detrimental results in the holding power and the  strength of the bend. See the attached close-up picture:  If it were of the "two-way hitch", the orange free end(s) would have been over the orange diagonal strand that also pass through the nipping loop as well, and not under it, as in the mid-line bowline bend(s).
   This useful property of the "mid-line" bend is also present in the most beautiful mid-line bend by dfred. (1)
   The "two way hitch" of Wright and Magowan is also implemented, in this form,  in their "waist rope hitch" ( see attached picture).

1) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3020.msg17965#msg17965
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Midspan bends.
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2011, 06:25:05 AM »
   The OP's knot was presented in the 1928 Alpine Journal by Wright & Magowan
as a middleman's tie-in knot --possible loading of the attachment against
either or both of the tied-to line's ends. 

   Thank you, Dan Lehman. I was finally able to get a copy of this article,
 through a friend of mine,
 [who] got it from from a friend of his,
 [who] got it from you ! :)

Well, well : it IS a small world (of knotters, anyway) !   :D


Quote
Nice find, although of a different knot ! 

Slightly, yes.  And I should've referred more narrowly, to the
OP version "a" --the one symmetric one-- as like W&M's.

W&M's knot has the same orientations as the common knots
sheet bend and bowline when so loaded --i.e.,
of a *same-side* sheet bend (not "left-handed") and common
bowline
(not "cowboy"); yours is the other way 'round,
in addition to the orientation of ends vs connecting part.

To put W&M's with a similarly "away" connecting part is
to get a much less stable knot --it shifts considerably when
loading changes!  (Hmmm, I see now two versions of doing
this --ends exiting between bight legs or not.)

I find the W&M version to work okay, well enough.

--dl*
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xarax

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Re: Midspan bends.
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2011, 04:05:36 PM »
   If the (orange, attached line s) point of exit is as close as possible to the "kiss" point of the (white, attaching line s) nipping loop, ( as it happens in all 3 variations of the "midline bowline" - but not in the W&M knot ), any detrimental effects of a lengthwise pull ( of the attached line ) upon the nipping loop ( of the attaching line ) are minimized.  Dfred s bend, which is simpler still, also retains this useful quality. Who is going to test those 5, getting-even-more-as-the-time-passes, it seems, bends, I wonder...
« Last Edit: July 16, 2011, 08:05:52 AM by xarax »
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xarax

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Re: Midspan bends.
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2011, 02:45:35 AM »
   dfred, can you test those two knots of yours as bases for end-of-line loops, and tell us your findings ?
   The first one would be a bowline-like loop with two Myrtle collars, and the second a crossing knot loop, also with two Myrtle collars.
    I think that  those two loops will be as secure and strong as the common bowline, or the crossing knot loops presented at (1).
    At the bowline thread (2), I came to the conclusion that we can not define and classify the end-of-line loops, if previously we have not done the same with the mid line bends that serve as "bases" of those loops. We should first examine the local properties of the nub, and only afterwards deal with the whole picture, the end-of-line loop. So, the study of your two knots takes a new twist.!

1) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3467.0
2) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3233.0
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 02:46:54 AM by xarax »
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xarax

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Re: Midspan bends.
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2011, 10:44:59 AM »
   Replacing the simple nipping loop with a double, crossed-coils one - that was proved to be more stable to axial, lengthwise pull- we have a modification of dfred s midspan bend. ( See the attached pictures.)
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xarax

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Re: Midspan bends.
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2011, 03:21:51 PM »
   A mid-line bend based on the Constrictor :  a Strangle knot, itied on the attached line, is interliocked with a Constrictor, tied on the main line. (See the attached picture).
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 02:54:06 AM by xarax »
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xarax

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Re: Midspan bends.
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2012, 08:36:30 AM »
   I have only recently realized that, if we have a complex enough, effective enough structure on the attached line, we do not need a closed nipping loop on the main line ! I was using a closed nipping structure till now, because I was driven by the similarity of a (TIB) mid line bend with the bowline - where the last  thing we want, is a deformed, opened, helical nipping loop ! 
   However, it turns out that any curve - even not so tight, closed curves as dfred and myself have been used till now - can, in fact, be utilizedo to prevent any slippage of the attached line alongside the main line.
   See the attached picture, where such a wide open, helical curve is able nevertheless to hold firmly in place the more complex, tight nipping structure of the attached line. I am sure we can find even simpler midline bends than the one shown here... and the interested reader is called to try his own hand.
 
  Read a comment on this structure on :
  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3233.msg21697#msg21697
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 10:22:04 AM by xarax »
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TMCD

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Re: Midspan bends.
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2012, 07:31:45 PM »
This is an interesting thread and it highlights just how versatile the Constrictor Knot can be. The Constrictor might just be the best all around  knot we have because it can serve as a bend, a loop, a binder and I even sometimes use it as a beefed up BellRinger's (ConstrictorRinger) for my Trucker's Hitches. The Bag Knot can do all of these things too..the fact they can be tied in the bight is what makes them so versatile.

To your orginal post Xarax, I would have to agree with Knot4U's assertion that tying two butterfly loops together would be the best mode of operation because you want something that can take a pull in any direction. I would assume that this would be the safest method too, interesting thread regardless.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2012, 07:32:45 PM by TMCD »

xarax

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Re: Midspan bends.
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2012, 08:00:21 PM »
the fact they can be tied in the bight is what makes [the Constrictor] so versatile.
   Yes, indeed... but I think that its high symmetry  is also a very important factor.
   You forgot to mention that the Constrictor can also serve as a fine noose-hitch, ( See the "Buntline extinguisher", at (1) ), the adjustable bowline-like loop (2), the Constrictot-based simple lock(s) for the bowline (3,4), and the Constrictor bend(s) (5).

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3133.msg18699#msg18699
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3233.msg21697#msg21697
3. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=19.msg20905#msg20905
4. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=19.msg20922#msg20922
5. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=938.msg21275#msg21275

« Last Edit: January 16, 2012, 11:30:24 AM by xarax »
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xarax

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Re: Midspan bends.
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2012, 02:24:22 PM »
   A possible, probably easy method of tying the Adjustable Constrictor loop.*
   We first make a bowline nipping loop ( do not worry !  :)  It is only temporary, it will disappear in due time, and will be transformed into an open helical coil...), and then we pass the working path in the wrong way ... Then we form a "proper", first bowline collar, we pass through the nipping loop again following the same path, and going over the strand it is already there, we form a second collar (around the eye leg of the standing part), and finally we pass the working end again through the nipping loop, for the last time, going over and crossing in an elbow configuration the strand of its first passage . ( This way, the strand returning from the collar around the eye leg of the standing part, will be put in an elbow, X = crossed embrace with the strand going  to the collar around the standing end) . ( So, each time we move "upwards " or "downwards", we pass the working end through the nipping loop from the same direction it had in its previous passage)( Verbal descriptions are often inadequate, my verbal descriptions are always incomprehensible, so : See the attached picture !   :)).

  * I know a few only things about how knots work, and almost nothing about how minds work, so usually I am very reluctant to make any suggestions of tying methods. People should remember and tie knots according to the specific way their  minds and their knots/materials combination work...I would be glad if somebody would figure out an easier way to tie this knot, that would better fit into his  mind - and possibly into mine s as well !  :)

P.S. If we want to tie the two-coils, or even the three coils version of those loops, we simply have to start from a double or triple nipping loop, and proceed as described above. I do not believe that more than one coils will be ever needed in any application, except perhaps for monofilament fishing lines.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 03:12:59 PM by xarax »
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