Author Topic: Possible new knot - Buffalo Hitch  (Read 9689 times)

Andre

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 16
Re: Possible new knot - Buffalo Hitch
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2011, 07:26:46 PM »

What exactly are you looking for?  The use of just a single thick rope for descent?

If you anchored with a running loop of your liking, would it be a violation of your preferences to use a separate small cord to unshrink the running loop anchor from the ground until it falls apart?

It wouldn't be as light as simple as a single rope, but the small cord wouldn't add much weight.

This is a very good idea.

A similar concept is used by the currently most accepted technique ("Pull cord technique"): an accessory cord tied to a stopper knot (overhand on a bight), with a carabiner conecting the resulting loop to the rope for added security.

A climber has died recently from not using the carabiner - the stopper knot passed through the rappel ring after loaded with full body weight.

This works fine for planned single line rappels, and the climber will be carrying the extra accessory cord, and many do indeed.

What I was looking for was an option to that, using rope-and-knot only, something climbers could use as a plan B, for unplanned single line rappels. For example, someone accidentally drops the accessory cord into the void. I know it's not very likely but it can happen. Climbers do drop stuff. I have witnessed myself carabiners, cam devices and radios getting to the ground at the base of the cliff.

Another example is climbers forced to rappel down an unplanned route which rappel stations are separated by more than half the rope's length.

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3909
Re: Possible new knot - Buffalo Hitch
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2011, 04:27:34 PM »
The OP's problem is quite a tough one : you want to be able
somehow to release a hitch=>attachment remotely after it
has supported body weight (or more),
and yet in the "unweighted" state, even, there is still some
weight on it --of the very material (here, perhaps 60m of rope,
or around 7-10 pounds) !  (Btw, I wonder about the actual
pounds-force upon the anchor, if the mass of the rope having
been stretched down over some rocky surface now has its
mass hanging PLUS some frictional resistance to recovering
the tension put on during abseil --i.e., the difference between
hoisting the mass in air vs. dragging it against the rock?)

The main (though itself not purely reliable) input people at
the (down) end of the line can give is tension, but the
attachment must have just endured that.

 ???

All that occurs to me in crude terms is having some structure
that has a sort of counterbalance weight to it that is well
greater than the hanging line and yet well less than that
of line + rappeller, such that when the line is unweighted
by the latter, this weight effects the spilling of the attachment.
But beyond this crude idea, I've no manifestation in mind,
and wonder at the reliable provision of such a counterweight,
and to the effect of line + CW free-falling from on high,
and possible ensuing troubles of line snagging ... !
--from the pot to the frying pan.

--dl*
====

knot4u

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1076
Re: Possible new knot - Buffalo Hitch
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2011, 08:17:07 PM »
Below is a very rough pic to show the idea of a single rope rappel by using a counterweight.  There are many variations.  One variation (not shown) is a counter-weighted running loop that falls open if there is no human load, and such a variation is applicable to a wider variety of anchors.



« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 08:42:19 PM by knot4u »

roo

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1841
    • The Notable Knot Index
Re: Possible new knot - Buffalo Hitch
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2011, 11:05:09 PM »
Below is a very rough pic to show the idea of a single rope rappel by using a counterweight.  

Aside from the issue of the weight getting caught on obstructions, or failing to drop on less extreme slopes, I'd be concerned about having a noggin-smasher hurtling down from on high.    ;)

Even if you don't mind being in harm's way, you might have a hard time getting your rope back for the purported next course if the weight keeps bouncing down the hillside below you.   :-X
« Last Edit: April 22, 2011, 12:06:22 AM by roo »
If you wish to add a troll to your ignore list, click "Profile" then "Buddies/Ignore List".


knot4u

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1076
Re: Possible new knot - Buffalo Hitch
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2011, 12:39:14 AM »
Below is a very rough pic to show the idea of a single rope rappel by using a counterweight.  

Aside from the issue of the weight getting caught on obstructions, or failing to drop on less extreme slopes, I'd be concerned about having a noggin-smasher hurtling down from on high.

Even if you don't mind being in harm's way, you might have a hard time getting your rope back for the purported next course if the weight keeps bouncing down the hillside below you.

I'd prefer to take my chances there rather than on a knot that is less secure while I'm rappelling.  Granted, I imagine the counterweight system would work only where there are no obstructions to stop the counterweight.

The counterweight shouldn't get too far down a hill if the counterweight has the proper shape and consistency (e.g., a bag filled with sand or dirt).  Also, trailing the counterweight is rope (e.g., 100 feet of climbing rope), and that should allow the climber ample opportunity to stop it.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2011, 03:35:17 AM by knot4u »

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3909
Re: Possible new knot - Buffalo Hitch
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2011, 05:32:17 AM »
Below is a very rough pic to show the idea of a single rope rappel by using a counterweight.
There are many variations.

I must point out that this variation is not what I had in mind.
(It also could be done with just one knot.)

Change it to a bight through the  ring, a slip-tuck bight
through that bight to toggle it,
and the tail weighted:
  • on rappel, the 1st bight nips the slip-tuck toggle hard
    and holds the abseiler for the descent;
  • by unweighting that line, though, the nip lessens (hope-hope),
    and the weighted tail pulls out the slip-tuck bight,
    spilling the line, weight attached, and secured below.

There are still some potential pitfalls as Roo remarks, with the
line & (relatively bulky) weight getting hung up (or, with their
projection past the lower belay point in the drop, hung down !).
And what counts for this added weight?  --a climbing shoe
stuffed with something dense?  (This is an emergency exit,
not planned 1-rope efficiency (stupidity)!)

--dl*
====

knot4u

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1076
Re: Possible new knot - Buffalo Hitch
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2011, 08:07:00 PM »
Change it to a bight through the  ring, a slip-tuck bight
through that bight to toggle it,
and the tail weighted:
  • on rappel, the 1st bight nips the slip-tuck toggle hard
    and holds the abseiler for the descent;
  • by unweighting that line, though, the nip lessens (hope-hope),
    and the weighted tail pulls out the slip-tuck bight,
    spilling the line, weight attached, and secured below.

I need a pic.

knot4u

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1076
Re: Possible new knot - Buffalo Hitch
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2011, 05:45:55 AM »
Here's a possible solution: a weighted Marlin Spike holding the load on the anchor and being situation to fall out after the standing end is unloaded and shaken.

Out of curiosity, what would you tie if you had 100 feet of a single rope and 40 feet of rappel distance?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2011, 05:49:06 AM by knot4u »

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3909
Re: Possible new knot - Buffalo Hitch
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2011, 04:09:05 AM »
Out of curiosity, what would you tie if you had 100 feet of a single rope and 40 feet of rappel distance?

A turn (the usual method).

--dl*
====

knot4u

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1076
Re: Possible new knot - Buffalo Hitch
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2011, 05:39:56 AM »
Out of curiosity, what would you tie if you had 100 feet of a single rope and 40 feet of rappel distance?

A turn (the usual method).

--dl*
====

I don't get it.  The subject here is rappelling.  So, I'd rather not guess what you mean.

What would be a good combination of knots to use for the rappel and to get the single rope down after the rappel?  (Again, the situation is 100 feet of single rope and 40 feet of rappel distance.) 
« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 05:43:28 AM by knot4u »

[Inkanyezi] gone

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 340
    • Pro three strand splice
Re: Possible new knot - Buffalo Hitch
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2011, 08:23:25 AM »
Out of curiosity, what would you tie if you had 100 feet of a single rope and 40 feet of rappel distance?

A turn (the usual method).

--dl*
====

I don't get it.  The subject here is rappelling.  So, I'd rather not guess what you mean.

What would be a good combination of knots to use for the rappel and to get the single rope down after the rappel?  (Again, the situation is 100 feet of single rope and 40 feet of rappel distance.) 

Most climbing ropes are 160' (or 50 m), but if what you have is a 100' rope and the distance is 40', there is 20' of rope with which to make the knots when the rope is doubled all the way. It's a pretty standard situation and there are several ways of doing it, but the simplest would be doubling the rope through the belaying point and putting a Munter through the biner on the harness. The rope ends are tied together with an overhand, There is no knot on the rope when it is retrieved, so it is rather simple.

The knot that is presented here is for cases where the doubled rope would not reach the point you would rappel to.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 08:26:53 AM by Inkanyezi »
All images and text of mine published on the IGKT site is licensed according to a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License.
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/

knot4u

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1076
Re: Possible new knot - Buffalo Hitch
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2011, 08:47:50 PM »
Out of curiosity, what would you tie if you had 100 feet of a single rope and 40 feet of rappel distance?

A turn (the usual method).

--dl*
====

I don't get it.  The subject here is rappelling.  So, I'd rather not guess what you mean.

What would be a good combination of knots to use for the rappel and to get the single rope down after the rappel?  (Again, the situation is 100 feet of single rope and 40 feet of rappel distance.) 

Most climbing ropes are 160' (or 50 m), but if what you have is a 100' rope and the distance is 40', there is 20' of rope with which to make the knots when the rope is doubled all the way. It's a pretty standard situation and there are several ways of doing it, but the simplest would be doubling the rope through the belaying point and putting a Munter through the biner on the harness. The rope ends are tied together with an overhand, There is no knot on the rope when it is retrieved, so it is rather simple.

The knot that is presented here is for cases where the doubled rope would not reach the point you would rappel to.

Thanks, I still don't get it though.  Do you have a link to a pic, a reference, a website or anything?

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3909
Re: Possible new knot - Buffalo Hitch
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2011, 06:05:15 AM »
Out of curiosity, what would you tie if you had 100 feet of a single rope and 40 feet of rappel distance?

A turn (the usual method).

--dl*
====

I don't get it.  The subject here is rappelling.  So, I'd rather not guess what you mean.

What would be a good combination of knots to use for the rappel and to get the single rope down after the rappel?  (Again, the situation is 100 feet of single rope and 40 feet of rappel distance.) 

 ???

Look at YOUR pic of a single-rope set-up above;
now, UNtie those dang knots.  Get it?  (There is some
extra 50' of rope on the just-unknotted side, as on the
other.  Actually, it's maybe a trick quetion : I'd use
Ashley's stoppers in both ends, 2 B sure --of not
rapping off the ends.)

.:.  The circumstance you posit is a standard, unchallenging
(and expected, with "twin" rope!) case; the more common
case is with two ropes, joined together.

--dl*
====

Andre

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 16
Re: Possible new knot - Buffalo Hitch
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2011, 01:20:16 PM »
Look at YOUR pic of a single-rope set-up above; now, UNtie those dang knots.  Get it?  (There is some extra 50' of rope on the just-unknotted side, as on the other.  Actually, it's maybe a trick quetion : I'd useAshley's stoppers in both ends, 2 B sure --of not rapping off the ends.)

.:.  The circumstance you posit is a standard, unchallenging (and expected, with "twin" rope!) case; the more common case is with two ropes, joined together.

--dl*
====

Just a quick note on rope systems nomenclature for climbing, which can be confusing:

1) Single rope:

- Thickest
- Most popular
- High dragging on way up (zig-zagging due to non-alignment of anchor points)
- Least expensive
- Rappel distance capacity is half of rope length
- Load must be carried by a single person on approach to route base

2) Double rope:
- Thinner
- Less dragging on way up (less zig-zagging due to possibility of clipping alternating anchor points with one or another rope depending of position of anchors, achieving a more close to straight line with both ropes)
- More expensive
- Rappel distance capacity is the total rope length for each rope using the two ropes united and folded in half.
- Load can be shared by two people on approach to route base
 
 
3) Twin ropes:
 
- Thinnest
- Meant to be used in pairs as a single rope, both ropes clipped to every single anchor on ascent.
- More expensive
- Rappel distance capacity is the total rope length for each rope using the two ropes united and folded in half.
- Load can be shared by two people on approach to route base

When referring to rappeling, one can rappel off a double line, which is any  rope (single rope or two ropes united) folded in half, just passed through the anchor point, no knot at the anchor point, stopper knots at both ends of the rope, both ends together or separated, to avoid rappelling off the end of the rope and death).

Rappelling off a single line refers to anchoring one end of the rope and rappelling through its whole length.

Andre.

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3909
Re: Possible new knot - Buffalo Hitch
« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2011, 04:21:24 AM »
And there are I think a few ropes that meet ALL of the trio
of rockclimbing-rope classifications --notably (the first?)
Beal's "Joker" (sort of a wild card that can be anything).

 :)