Author Topic: "Best of breed" knots?  (Read 72394 times)

DaveRoot

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Re: "Best of breed" knots?
« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2005, 09:20:56 PM »
Quote
If you want to send me a private message with a fax number in it, I can fax you a diagram of each.

Mark, did you receive my fax #?  If not, check my profile and send me an email.  Thx!

mchalkley

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Re: "Best of breed" knots?
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2005, 10:58:38 PM »
Quote

Mark, did you receive my fax #?  If not, check my profile and send me an email.  Thx!



No, I didn't, Dave, but I just sent you an e-mail.

Mark

Dan Lehman

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Re: "Best of breed" knots?
« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2005, 05:50:32 AM »
Quote
the Boom Hitch is in most of Budworth's books.
As for the "Ichabod" knot, there must be another name for it, ...æI got the name from John Shaw's "The Directory of Knots".

Both are Budworth--"Shaw" is pseudonym.
---------------------------------------

Quote
... you recognize that your neighbor is only looking for some useful, general-purpose,around-the-house-and-yard information about knots.

And here's what's come up from various posters to answer the problem (with my
additions marked by '+' at the bottom of each set; and items in parenthesis are
things only implied or mused):

Bend:
Rosendahl's (Zeppelin) Bend
SmitHunterÍs Bend
Fig.8 Bend
Fisherman's Knot
Dbl.Dragon-derived (end-loaded) Bend
(Fig.8 Fisherman's?)
((Offset Fig.8 Bend?))
((OJ's Interlocked Fig.8 Bend?))
+ Sheet/Dbl.Sheet Bends
+ SquaREef Knot

End Loop:
Bowline, plus the Dbl.Bwl or a Water Bwl.
Rosendahl's Zep. Loop
Dbl.Dragon
Fig.8 loopknot
+ Half-Hitched Bwl

Mid-Line Loop:
Butterfly
(Overhand)
((Fig.8?))
+ Dbl.Bwl (#1074) [for inlineuses (what else would there be?!)]

Double Loop:
Fig.8 Dbl.Loop
Dbl.Dragon Dble/Trbl.Loop
+ Dbl.Bwl (#1074)

Hitch:
Slipped Buntline is fine, but so is
(a good) Timber H. ["good" might = #1669!]
Boom H. (#1687)
Fig.8 H. [whichway?]
+2HH (w/RTurn or not)
+Clove H.
+Rolling H.(w/stopper)

Stopper:
Fig.8
Overhand
+Ashley's (#526)

Noose:
IchabodÍs (#1123)

Friction H.:
MidshipmanÍs H.
Tautline H.
+Rolling H. (#1734)
(+Blake's [ProhGrip] H.)

KnotStructure:
Versatackle
+Combined HH & Rolling H.

"Slipped Loop": [?? What's (the point of) this?]

Miscellaneous Other:
Packer's Knot
Constrictor Binder
+Stangle Knot
+Common Whipping (version)
+French Whipping

We some favorite-knot advocacies (!) here--Rosendahl's, Dbl.Drgn, Fig.8, Oh.--,
which I think go beyond practicality.  Applying arguably a single knot form such
as the Fig.8 into some particular knot for each functional class isn't as easy as
it might nominally sound (it's esp. a reach in my citing a binderuse!).
And it leaves open what variant of bend & hitch are intended:  one can make offset
or pull-together (i.e., like the Fisherman's) bends with it, or an interlocked knot
(like #1452) as "OJ" has advanced in rec.crafts.knots, and of course there is the
usual traceknot commonly shown by this name; qua hitch, there is the minimal
Timber H. version (#1824), but also some none-"snug" (Ashley's term) hitches like the
Overhand form in #1825, a sort of noose-hitch.

[END PART I OF II --ARGH, THIS MSG. LIMIT!*^%&$]-:

Dan Lehman

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Re: "Best of breed" knots?
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2005, 06:00:55 AM »
[PART II of II  (DaveR--nb ABOK #s for Boom/Ichabod in Part I)]

But what rope problemsdo these proposed basic knot sets anticipate?  --clearly NOT
tying shoes!  So, perhaps the neighbor came over well shod.  But how many times is one
going to be wanting to tie Rosendahl's bend vs. a SquaREef or Sheet Bend, which both are
simpler?  What do you gain from the more cumbersome fiddling of a Dbl.Dragon over the
quickly tied Bwl?

In none of the sets suggested by others did I see a way to tie off a load under some
tension other than the Tautline H./Midshipman's H.; 2HH or RT&2HH is a pretty common
& venerable knot for that.  (The presentation of TlH/MdspH it typically really of an
adjustable loopknotand one should better be providing just the *knot* part that
does the work, and which can do work on other than its own medium!)  I'm assuming that
by "<MdspH>" one intends the 2nd-turn-jammed-into-1st version; books show various things
for this name.  Some studies suggest that this form is less effective (than #1734).
A Clove H. can also serve here, backed-up with a stopper or 3rd HH, or a Clove on its
SPart (i.e., "2HH").

I included whippings because, dang it, one too often sees the ends of ropes unraveling,
for want of such a simple treatment--which, yes, could come from tape.  But the Common
Whipping mechanism of wrapping a bight that then nips securely an end can be applied
more broadly (with some imagination), so it's worth presenting this.
As for the French Whippin, that extends use of the Clove H., showing
broader binding application.

Btw, my "+Stangle Knot" of course => 'Strangle'.  This knot I see useful in
various ways, though many functions are addressed also by some of
the other knots.  It's helpful to give a secure knot to back-upanother knot,
e.g. in tying off something w/slippery-springy PP rope (or to make
a surer stopper in such)--e.g., RT&2HH + Strangle.

On the "mid-line loop", I question exactly what one is anticipating here?  If it's the
use of a loop to build a MA leveraging structure (Trucker's/Wagoner's H.), then it's an
inlineloop function, to which the Butterfly is an awkward solution; the Inline
Fig.10 might be the most robust, for some heavier uses where end-2-end loading absent
eye loading might occur.  But for quick Trucker's H. building, borrowing on the Bwl's
quick tying & untying seems best.  Where that Sheepshank-like common knot might seem
a bit TOO quick & unstable, the simple further tucking of the end bight to make #1074
removes all doubt, and provides additional material at the wear point (dbl.eye).
(There are some single Bwl-in-bight that can work here.)  Heck, just an Overhand or
Fig.8 loopknot works as well--they're pretty non-jamming in an offsetorientation.

Quote
... I think it is of most use to most people to know a good binding knot ...

DRJBrennan, what common/frequent uses do you find for the Constrictor? (I find use for it, or for
its cognate doubled version, #1253 (no, not the one most books show, which is #1252), as a whipping;
but I donÕt use it much.)

Quote from: PABPres
Constrictor (as binding, midloop and end loop)

Sorry, but this doesnÕt compute: the Constrictor is a binder, not a loop.
Do you mean #1045, as results from an inchoate in-the-bight Constrictor form?

--dl*

roo

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Re: "Best of breed" knots?
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2005, 08:33:30 AM »
Just a couple random thoughts:

One of the reasons a Butterfly Loop is so popular is that unlike some (many) inline loops, you don't even have to think about which way it needs to be oriented after you tie it.   It's not really tough to tie, either.

Also, part of the reason for teaching a secure bend versus a sheet bend for your neighbor's alleged backyard use is that your neighbor isn't limited to his backyard and will use his limited array of knots everywhere.  If this theoretical person insists on knowing just one bend, it's not unreasonable to give him one that works in the most situations, so that when he ties on an extra line to his buddy's crab trap, he doesn't lose it.

Just a few weeks ago, I was working out with a rope sling attached to some cable equipment that I thought would probably be "good enough" with a quick sheet bend.  Well, in nice, big, soft nylon rope, the bend rolled around a handle and popped apart.  No harm done, but I don't use it for that anymore.  :)

I could be over-estimating novices' abilities, but once you see the symmetry of a Rosendahl bend and know the "b" and "q" memory trick, for example, it's hard to forget.  After that, why save a good knot for only special occasions?

I think such theoretical, open-ended questions will always cause a wide range of solutions with various rationales because the problem is fuzzy, not well-defined, with the limits of how many knot types and functions unclear.

In the end, it's a little like arguing over how music could be best represented with the least amount of songs.  Good luck! :-/
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knudeNoggin

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Re: "Best of breed" knots?
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2005, 09:37:28 PM »
Quote
One of the reasons a Butterfly Loop is so popular is that unlike some (many) inline loops, you don't even have to think about which way it needs to be oriented after you tie it.   It's not really tough to tie, either.

Or the Farmer's Loopknot, which has that fun dance of a tying method!
It might better resist jamming than the Butterfly (YMMV), too.

Quote
Also, part of the reason for teaching a secure bend versus a sheet bend for your neighbor's alleged backyard use is that your neighbor isn't limited to his backyard and will use his limited array of knots everywhere.

This is an excellent point!  There is some evidence that knots of an
offset nature used for abseil-ropes (e.g. "EDK") can become quite
unstable in stiffer ropes.  If one learns it only in a flexible rope,
and without caveats, the consequences can be bad!

Quote
the "b" and "q" memory trick, for example,

Ah, yes, that's a good one!  (If only it could be "pdq"!)

Quote
I think such theoretical, open-ended questions will always cause a wide range of solutions with various rationales because the problem is fuzzy, not well-defined, with the limits of how many knot types and functions unclear.

The problem's not all so impractical, is it?  We have all such  acquaintances.

About the "how many", that was discuss a little somewher by those
who originated the Surrey Six.  Their number was small on account
of fears that more would overwhelm learners.
But there is some binding strength to learning enough knots
to be able to see similarities, and to also learn sorts of changes
and structures that give rise to the different knots.  Another
thread in this Forum e.g. discusses extensions to the common
Bowline.  And there is hint about how odd it is for books to present
the Tarbuck Knot as some great invention when it should be
obvious to the eye that it is a variation on the old Rolling Hitch
(or Tautline--whatever you call it).

It is a worthwhile topic, endeavor!

*knudeNoggin*
« Last Edit: January 11, 2005, 09:55:52 PM by knudeNoggin »

roo

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Re: "Best of breed" knots?
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2005, 09:55:43 PM »
Quote
.Or the Farmer's Loopknot, which has that fun dance of a tying method!
It might better resist jamming than the Butterfly (YMMV), too.


Gosh, I'll have to re-visit the Farmer's Loop.  I seem to recall avoiding it because I had problems with it being a pain to untie.
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knudeNoggin

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Re: "Best of breed" knots?
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2005, 05:01:53 AM »
Quote
Gosh, I'll have to re-visit the Farmer's Loop.  I seem to recall avoiding it because I had problems with it being a pain to untie.

As I wrote, "YMMV".  One end enters the knot to nip the opposite
end and part of the knot, and the opposite end nips the legs of the
eye.  Loaded with the eye slack, the bight around the first end should
be loose enough to enable untying.  With the eye loaded against this
end, that bight ("collar") again should exist.  But, like those parts
in the Butterfly, loading the other side can tighten this bight (if the end
is not loaded to hold it out).  However, then there should be some
play with the bight around the eye legs.

I don't doubt that it might become difficult, as you know, given some
hard loading in certain ropes.   (And I thought like you, but  on some
further play and consideration, found it not so bad.   YMMV :-)

*knudeNoggin*

roo

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Re: "Best of breed" knots?
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2005, 08:44:51 AM »
Quote

As I wrote, "YMMV".  One end enters the knot to nip the opposite
end and part of the knot, and the opposite end nips the legs of the
eye.  Loaded with the eye slack, the bight around the first end should
be loose enough to enable untying.  With the eye loaded against this
end, that bight ("collar") again should exist.  But, like those parts
in the Butterfly, loading the other side can tighten this bight (if the end
is not loaded to hold it out).  However, then there should be some
play with the bight around the eye legs.

I don't doubt that it might become difficult, as you know, given some
hard loading in certain ropes.   (And I thought like you, but  on some
further play and consideration, found it not so bad.   YMMV :-)

*knudeNoggin*


Upon a quick revisting of the Farmer's Loop, its ease of untying seems OK, so perhaps it was some instability in slick, springy rope that gave me misgivings.  It was a long time ago.  
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Jimbo

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Re: "Best of breed" knots?
« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2005, 07:46:10 PM »
Hi all!

Knot to haul up an old thread (as I notice these threads tend to fray & fall behind), but re: the Farmer's Loop, I must post this:

When I follow the directions I can find for it (knot owning an ABOK), it resembles a small handful of midline loops (I call 'em "Dropper Loops" because I mainly use 'em fishing) I started learning before I settled on the Alpine Butterfly...  You've seen them, they all start with "throw three turns around your hand, then weave this one over/under/around that one then ..."

Anyway, when I tie the Farmer's, I get a loop that fails when I pull on the working parts.  No, I don't think I misread the instructions, nor do I think I just had a "brain fart" repeatedly.  The loop part gets pulled directly through the knot by one of the working ends.  Okay, I admit the loop should be serving it's purpose, but I don't always load loops as the ends are being pulled.  I'm guessing if you used the loop to haul the ends it should be okay, but why not a Pile Hitch in that case??  I'll be the first to admit I don't always "get it", hence my insistence on sticking with knots, hitches, loops, & bends I've tied myself & used successfully in the past &/or have personally tested to failure...  If I die at the end of a rope, I do not want to leave someone saying "I shoulda learnt that knot Uncle Jimbo kept trying to show me!"  Better they should say "Awww, he wasn't such a knot geek after all!"

As soon as I can, though, to be fair, I'll kill another one of my pets by drawing & quartering it with pickup trucks, having carefully (carefully) laid in the best Farmer's Loop I can.

Okay, apologies in advance for "dissing" someone's pet loop, but you won't ever, EVER see my favorite gluteus maximus hanging from one of these!!
Thank you all, for everything.  As of 6/6/6, I have changed my password to a random string (which I forgot), thereby assuring that anyone posting as "Jimbo" in the future will NOT be me.  Good luck!!!

KnotNow!

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d it.Re: "Best of breed" knots?
« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2005, 10:35:57 PM »
Hi Jimbo,  You sure are exploring the old threads.  Good man.  The farmers loop (I know you have no ABOK) is ABOK #2565 and to quote the text "Three loops may be taken with soft cord around the left forefinger."  I think CWA was offering it as a twine knot as was the Cornell University Bulletin which he credits for the first publication.  I actually knew a farmer who used it!  The ever present bailer twine on the farm is about the right stuff for this loop.  I'd not be using in in life support context, greatly prefering the Alpine Butterfly.  I am not sure the nip is right for monofilament.  Might be ok as a fishing drop loop.  I think the attraction is the easy way of tieing it.  Even I can remember it from one seldom usage to the next.  The fact that CWA put it in the chapter with tricks and puzzles might be a clue as to his thoughts on it?
ROY S. CHAPMAN, IGKT-PAB BOARD.

Dan Lehman

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Re: "Best of breed" knots?
« Reply #41 on: May 02, 2005, 10:04:29 AM »
Quote
Hi all!

Knot to haul up an old thread (as I notice these threads tend to fray & fall behind), but re: the Farmer's Loop, I must post this:
...  No, I don't think I misread the instructions, nor do I think I just had a "brain fart" repeatedly.  The loop part gets pulled directly through the knot by one of the working ends.

Clearly you mistied the knot, and mistook good instructions if that they
were.  A general verbal description of how to move each of those three
turns over one's hand is as follows:  lift the center turn over one side
turn; then lift that side-now-in-center turn over the opposite side turn;
now lift that opp.-side-now-in-center turn over its (present) opp.-side
turn (which is the original center turn); finally, the orig. center turn
now being back in the center, draw out this center turn as the knot's
eye.  It certainly does NOT lead directly to either end.

Or, as described for a specific order of jumps:
"Take three turns of the rope round your hand, then:
1. Move center part (b) over right part.
2. Move new center part (c) over left part.
3. Move new center part (a) over right part. [NEW C. => ORIG. C. THUSLY]
4. Pull new center part (b) up to form the loop
5. For most satisfying results, remove hand before fairing or loading knot."

--dl*
====

roo

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Re: "Best of breed" knots?
« Reply #42 on: May 02, 2005, 09:17:29 PM »
Quote
Hi all!

Knot to haul up an old thread (as I notice these threads tend to fray & fall behind), but re: the Farmer's Loop, I must post this:

When I follow the directions I can find for it (knot owning an ABOK), it resembles a small handful of midline loops (I call 'em "Dropper Loops" because I mainly use 'em fishing) I started learning before I settled on the Alpine Butterfly...  You've seen them, they all start with "throw three turns around your hand, then weave this one over/under/around that one then ..."

Anyway, when I tie the Farmer's, I get a loop that fails when I pull on the working parts.  No, I don't think I misread the instructions, nor do I think I just had a "brain fart" repeatedly.  The loop part gets pulled directly through the knot by one of the working ends.  Okay, I admit the loop should be serving it's purpose, but I don't always load loops as the ends are being pulled.  I'm guessing if you used the loop to haul the ends it should be okay, but why not a Pile Hitch in that case??  I'll be the first to admit I don't always "get it", hence my insistence on sticking with knots, hitches, loops, & bends I've tied myself & used successfully in the past &/or have personally tested to failure...  If I die at the end of a rope, I do not want to leave someone saying "I shoulda learnt that knot Uncle Jimbo kept trying to show me!"  Better they should say "Awww, he wasn't such a knot geek after all!"

As soon as I can, though, to be fair, I'll kill another one of my pets by drawing & quartering it with pickup trucks, having carefully (carefully) laid in the best Farmer's Loop I can.

Okay, apologies in advance for "dissing" someone's pet loop, but you won't ever, EVER see my favorite gluteus maximus hanging from one of these!!

If you Google for "Farmer's Loop" you'll get this:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/farmersloop.html
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 12:06:14 AM by roo »
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Jimbo

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Re: "Best of breed" knots?
« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2005, 11:29:47 PM »
Quote

Clearly you mistied the knot, and mistook good instructions if that they
were.  A general verbal description of how to move each of those three
turns over one's hand is as follows:  lift the center turn over one side
turn; then lift that side-now-in-center turn over the opposite side turn;
now lift that opp.-side-now-in-center turn over its (present) opp.-side
turn (which is the original center turn); finally, the orig. center turn
now being back in the center, draw out this center turn as the knot's
eye.  It certainly does NOT lead directly to either end.

Or, as described for a specific order of jumps:
"Take three turns of the rope round your hand, then:
1. Move center part (b) over right part.
2. Move new center part (c) over left part.
3. Move new center part (a) over right part. [NEW C. => ORIG. C. THUSLY]
4. Pull new center part (b) up to form the loop
5. For most satisfying results, remove hand before fairing or loading knot."

--dl*
====


Dan,

Not only did I obviously miss something (although after a lot of tries, I still didn't catch it), but according to Roy, my use of 10mm Dyneema might've been a little ... uh ... "optimistic", shall we say...   :-[

It never occurred to me to do it in twine or mono!!  I should've known when the three turns almost swallowed my hand, something wasn't exactly right!  ;D

Well, chalk up another one to the wonders of global telecommunications!  Had I been that 18th Century farmer, what a world of hurt I'd be in!  (But of course, then I'd have a neighbor demonstrate it to me in real time and check me on the spot...)

Thank you for the kind and gentle correction.
Thank you all, for everything.  As of 6/6/6, I have changed my password to a random string (which I forgot), thereby assuring that anyone posting as "Jimbo" in the future will NOT be me.  Good luck!!!

Jimbo

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Re: "Best of breed" knots?
« Reply #44 on: May 02, 2005, 11:34:59 PM »
Quote


If you Google for "Farmer's Loop" you'll get this:

http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/farmersloop.html

Hi, roo.  Thank you for the reminder, but actually, whenever I have any questions or doubts, your site is one of the first I check to make sure I'm not misreading somebody else's description!  ;D

(And I always check Google!)

But thank you for the reminder!
Thank you all, for everything.  As of 6/6/6, I have changed my password to a random string (which I forgot), thereby assuring that anyone posting as "Jimbo" in the future will NOT be me.  Good luck!!!