Author Topic: New Stopper Knot?  (Read 15179 times)

Bryn Kolbe

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New Stopper Knot?
« on: March 18, 2011, 02:14:35 AM »
I was playing around the other day and believe that I may have come up with a new stopper knot. It is a large stopper knot that is easy to tie and untie, but it will not slip. I would like to have it reviewed to see if it is in fact a new knot or if it already exists. I have sketches and pictures of the knot but can not get them small enough to post here. I would like to have this knot reviewed, so could someone please tell me how to get the pictures on to the forum. Thanks in advance for your help.
Bryn

SS369

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Re: New Stopper Knot?
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2011, 02:19:24 AM »
Hello Bryn and welcome to the forum.

I'd love to see and read what you've conjured up.
Please think about how to describe this in words and also if you could use any number of image editing software(s), shrink the pictures to 100kb/s and post them right here in this thread.

If you still have challenges and would like to, you could email the pictures to me  (email address in my profile) and I will reduce them and add them here.

SS

knot4u

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Re: New Stopper Knot?
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2011, 04:25:09 AM »
Try this...
http://tinypic.com/

Also, just about any pic viewing software allows you to reduce the size.

SS369

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Re: New Stopper Knot?
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2011, 01:40:27 PM »
Bryn took me up on my offer of help, so here is a drawing of his stopper knot.
If needed I have some pictures in the tying series as well, but the drawing does it nicely.

SS

DerekSmith

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Re: New Stopper Knot?
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2011, 02:31:21 PM »
What a delight.

Derek

Sweeney

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Re: New Stopper Knot?
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2011, 03:08:59 PM »
Bryn approached me about a knew stopper knot and I suggested he place details on the forum, which I'm glad he did as I've not seen this configuration before.

Barry

roo

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Re: New Stopper Knot?
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2011, 04:59:10 PM »
Bryn took me up on my offer of help, so here is a drawing of his stopper knot.
If needed I have some pictures in the tying series as well, but the drawing does it nicely.

SS

If you take away the extra coils, this looks to be the Oysterman's Knot or the Ashley Stopper Knot.

When seriously strained, the core mechanism of the knot pulls through the coils and becomes difficult to untie.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2011, 05:10:10 PM by roo »
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SS369

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Re: New Stopper Knot?
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2011, 06:38:15 PM »
Hello Roo.

I am unsure as to what you were quoting me as saying?

As for hard to untie, well that could be just fine and dandy for a permanent stopper.
Drawing down into the bulk will be quite a task if we are talking about using rope as the medium and not string.

If you were to take away a number of parts of this knot and add a couple of parts you could see a couple of knots that belong to the fishing knot genre.

Would make a nice heaving line knot as well Bryn. Thank you for bringing it!
I didn't find it in a cursory browse through ABOK.

SS

Dan_Lehman

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Re: New Stopper Knot?
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2011, 07:20:17 PM »
If you take away the extra coils, this looks to be the Oysterman's Knot or the Ashley Stopper Knot.

When seriously strained, the core mechanism of the knot pulls through the coils and becomes difficult to untie.

(Not sure why SS469 was quoted --just a fer-sure *this* reference?)

As for its likeness to Ashley's Stopper, there is the general structure
of a noose-hitch clamping its own tail --and that works for any
number of noose-hitches to become stopper knots, pretty well.

By this time of forum discussion we should not be making assertions
about the *knot* but, if we've actually done some *testing*, about
some particularly knotted material!  And I see some at my feet
where the thought of the tail being pulled through is hard to raise
--some theoretical possibility but not one likely in practice, IMO.

I've fiddled it in a couple 5/8" laid ropes (a firm, stiff, soft-laid
CoEx PP/PE one, and a soft-laid (and darn *shedding* of fibre bits)
manila one, and a small single-braided (nylon?) cord).  In setting
the knot, the S.Part-end loop is first tightened, and the coils can
then be drawn tight with the tail, before tightening the tail-end
loop upon it --so there should be no room to pull the tail through
these tightened coils.  But that is a risk of poorly set such knots,
and the Ashley's stopper in particular (esp. as that knot is
so poorly presented with regard to tying).

The knot is bulky, but I don't find the consumption of material
to be all so beneficial, to be so well disposed.  It's halfway or
further to being a decent heaving-line knot!  The double-nipping
(or -noosing) construct is fun idea to explore further, for those
keen to fiddle.

Thanks,
--dl*
====
« Last Edit: March 18, 2011, 09:02:25 PM by Dan_Lehman »

SS369

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Re: New Stopper Knot?
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2011, 07:46:48 PM »
Not nitpicking Dan, but it is an easy nickname to copy.  >"(Not sure why SS469 was quoted --just a fer-sure *this* reference?)"
Is there something Freudian about this?

SS369

roo

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Re: New Stopper Knot?
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2011, 11:16:19 PM »
It's not a beefed up Ashley.  Even after taking away all the coils to have a Slipped Overhand, the working end of this knot would NOT pass through the final loop in the same orientation as an Ashley.  For comparison, see the pics below.

I did tie a beefed up Ashley (NOT shown here), and it's more elegant than the Kolbe Heaving Knot shown here.  If I get motivated, I'll post a pic.

When watering down the knot presented in this thread (skip the step 2 coils), I get the Oysterman's/Ashley stopper exactly, even down to the same handedness.  Perhaps your method of beefing up an Oysterman's Knot up is different.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2011, 11:19:00 PM by roo »
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roo

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Re: New Stopper Knot?
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2011, 11:22:45 PM »
You're mistaken.  It's definitely not an Ashley Stopper once you take away the coils.  Look at the pics I posted.  Specifically, see step 4 and 5.  That right there ventures away from Ashley.
Don't look at the steps, look at the end product.
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roo

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Re: New Stopper Knot?
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2011, 11:33:19 PM »
Since I'm 100% you are unable to listen to me, maybe someone else can verify what I'm saying.  If not, I'll have to post a pic.
Since step 4 is redundant, and step 2 is where the extra coils are added, I'd ask you to execute steps 1, 3, and 5, and compare it to an Oysterman's.

Hold both by the free end of the rope, and look for the bowlinesque structure.
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roo

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Re: New Stopper Knot?
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2011, 11:58:38 PM »
Come on, Roo, you're better than this.  Look at your own drawing.  In order to be analogous to the knot in original post, the working end (in your drawing) would have to go down, around, and back down into that loop.  Right now (in your drawing), the working is only going down and coming back up through the loop.

1.  Look at your drawing.
2.  Look at steps 4 and 5 of the original knot.
3.  Repeat.
I've repeated the steps a number of times.  You can arrive at the same knot by apparently different avenues.

Tell me, do you at least see the bowlinesque structure in either the Oysterman's or the watered down version of the knot presented in this thread (which I contend are the same)?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2011, 12:00:31 AM by roo »
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dmacdd

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Re: New Stopper Knot?
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2011, 06:23:52 AM »
It's not a beefed up Ashley.  Even after taking away all the coils to have a Slipped Overhand, the working end of this knot would NOT pass through the final loop in the same orientation as an Ashley.  For comparison, see the pics below.

I did tie a beefed up Ashley (NOT shown here), and it's more elegant than the Kolbe Heaving Knot shown here.  If I get motivated, I'll post a pic.

When watering down the knot presented in this thread (skip the step 2 coils), I get the Oysterman's/Ashley stopper exactly, even down to the same handedness.  Perhaps your method of beefing up an Oysterman's Knot up is different.

The upper lobe of the starting figure 8 structure is twisted 180 degrees in such a way that the carrying around of the working end around, under,  behind and over after being put through down through  the upper side of the lower lobe after step 1 instead of after adding more turns at step 2 is topologically the same as untwisting that upper lobe and brining the working end around as in the Ashley stopper and putting up through the bottom of the untwisted upper lobe.

If I omit step 2 and proceed with the rest, but do some careful twisting of the final assembly after step 6 while tightening without changing the topology, I get the Ashley stopper.