Author Topic: Three-Quarter Figure-of-Eight Loop  (Read 5131 times)

JJ

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Three-Quarter Figure-of-Eight Loop
« on: February 28, 2011, 12:52:00 AM »
The Three-Quarter Figure-of-Eight loop is so called by Budworth in Ultimate Encyclopedia of Knots and Ropework. Other information is: devised by Robert Chisnall, relatiively new (as of 1999? or 2009? -- the book's copyrights), and is a loop that supposedly will not distort "when pulled in either direction".

I tied this knot in a hurry, just going by the photos. (Wanted another type of loop besides an Alpine Butterfly while rigging a sailboat.) I used only a standing end. It seemed to work!

Later, I read the photos' captions.

The knot should be tied using both ends of the rope, so it said! That does not seem practical if you are tying a loop in a long piece of rope and would therefore have to work the full length of rope through the knot from both directions...

I can find no other info on this knot. It is a neat looking knot and seems to be a neat and cleaner alternative to some other loops... although I must have a problem since I tied it wrong, although it looks right.

Neither the photos or the instructions are all that clear. Anyone have experience with this knot? Anyone have better tying instructions? I am re-trying tying this...
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 12:52:58 AM by JJ »

roo

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Re: Three-Quarter Figure-of-Eight Loop
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2011, 04:04:11 AM »
Neither the photos or the instructions are all that clear.
Unclear photos or diagrams are better than nothing.  Could you attach a photo?

As an aside, what qualities are you looking for in a loop (On the bight?  Variable-direction pulling?  End only?  Easy to tie?  Easy to check?  Jam resistant?  Secure? Etc.)  Maybe a more well-known and well-evaluated loop might do.
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Three-Quarter Figure-of-Eight Loop
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2011, 04:38:06 AM »
Hello, JJ.  Thanks for the question.   :)

The Three-Quarter Figure-of-Eight loop is so called by Budworth in Ultimate Encyclopedia of Knots and Ropework.

... on p.186 --a citation that helps, for the knot is unknown
to the book's Index, sadly.

Quote
Other information is: devised by Robert Chisnall, relatiively new
 (as of 1999? or 2009? -- the book's copyrights), ...
The book says, rather, "in the 1980s," a decade prior.

Quote
and is a loop that supposedly will not distort "when pulled in either direction".

Thank-you for the "supposedly" --I'm having trouble with
coming to this observation, myself, esp. in firm kernmantle,
which one might think was the prime target!

Quote
The knot should be tied using both ends of the rope, so it said!

Just back the eye out of the finished knot (or look at the last
tying photo and see this, mentally), and you'll see how to tie
it in the bight --NO ends (which, as you say, is what one wants).

Quote
It is a neat looking knot and seems to be a neat and cleaner alternative to some other loops

Here we disagree, sharply : it is a terrible knot that doesn't begin
to meet it's raison d'etre well.  I cannot figure out how either of
Rob of Geoffrey found it otherwise --or you, for that matter!?
(Conceivably, the book got it wrong; I don't have time to check.)
In what material are you tying it?

And it's hardly as new as the book claims, but for perhaps the
(misguided, IMO) using it qua mid-line eyeknot and loading
either end.  As,
Roo, it is Ashley's #1057, which he says "it tends to distort if the
pull is on opposite ends."  Now, it could be that in SOME soft
flexible materials it can be dressed & set so that this distortion
is the starting shape, roughly, and no further distortion occurs;
I'm not finding that, though, and think it's a lousy knot as such.

--dl*
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JJ

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Re: Three-Quarter Figure-of-Eight Loop
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2011, 06:22:53 AM »






At top is the knot, in yellow. It is tied correctly.

The two in red are my quickly tied freaks.

Several thoughts --

1. The "freaks" are not worth studying. I tried.
2. Surprised about what Budworth said about this knot. Just by his commenting that this knot is new and not thoroughly tested, why then include it in the book? The book has been a joy; this was the only quirk I have hit so far.
3. Also, between the second and third panels, one of the cardinal sins of knot explanation happens, I think. They switch the working ends outside the frame of the picture.

Yeah, did notice later that it said the knot appeared in the 1980 -- and that is not new, as described...

@ Roo: This loop is not bulky -- that was the main attraction. In the bottom pic, the loop holds a block. This loop simply looked smaller, less bulky, and therefore not as likely to get tangled in the pulley circuits.

Quote
On the bight?  Variable-direction pulling?  End only?  Easy to tie?  Easy to check?  Jam resistant?  Secure? Etc.

Yeah, I'll take them all!  ;D

roo

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Re: Three-Quarter Figure-of-Eight Loop
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2011, 05:28:09 PM »
Quote
On the bight?  Variable-direction pulling?  End only?  Easy to tie?  Easy to check?  Jam resistant?  Secure? Etc.

Yeah, I'll take them all!  ;D
OK.  Since you already know the Butterfly Loop, here are some other well-tested knots you might want to add to your repertoire:

An on-the-bight loop:  
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/spanloop.html

End loops:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/zeppelinloop.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/waterbowline.html

An on-the-bight hitch:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/pilehitch.html

Thanks for the pictures, by the way.  It helped me confirm what you were seeing.  I'm not too fond of that loop.  Its stability problems have always troubled me.

« Last Edit: March 03, 2011, 09:11:29 PM by roo »
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knot4u

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Re: Three-Quarter Figure-of-Eight Loop
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2011, 08:42:52 PM »


Can that knot be tied in the bight?  I can't figure out how.

Also, please provide a knot name under each pic.  Make up a name if necessary.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 03:33:28 AM by knot4u »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Three-Quarter Figure-of-Eight Loop
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2011, 05:49:31 AM »
Can that knot be tied in the bight?  I can't figure out how.

No, it's (reducible to) an overhand.

And the yellow-rope (OP-questioned) knot doesn't look like that for
me, esp. after pulling it end-vs-end; the supposed non-distorting
behavior I don't get.

JJ, you might look into using the Farmer's Loop
(which is also in Ashley's BoK ).

--dl*
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