Author Topic: A beautiful Water bend  (Read 14357 times)

xarax

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A beautiful Water bend
« on: February 20, 2011, 04:17:56 AM »
   Pictures of a beautiful Water bend, that I now call Water 8 bend : because the rope of the one of the two links follows a graceful symmetric space curve in the form of an 8. The other remains an Overhand knot. (1) (See attached pictures) The reader is advised to tie this knot and admire its form in three dimensions, because 2D pictures can not represent it very well. It is very easily tied and dressed, if we start from the proper loose knot - presented in the first picture.  
   The beauty of this bend lies not only in its form, but also in the fact that its curves are very wide and gentle, so it is a suitable bend for stiff ropes, and should be of one of a considerable strength.
   I find it amazing that a particular dressing can change the well known form of a simple knot so much ! I think that this bend is one of the most beautiful knots I have tied, ever.

1) For another variation / dressing of the Water bend, where the two links are identical overhand-knot looking 3D curves, see :
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2154.0
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 08:22:48 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

roo

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Re: A beautiful Water bend
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2011, 04:36:25 AM »
Which ends are the standing parts and which are the free ends?

Since this is the Practical Knots forum, have you tested it in small-diameter nylon under high strain for jamming? 
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xarax

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Re: A beautiful Water bend
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2011, 12:43:22 PM »
Thank you roo,

Which ends are the standing parts and which are the free ends?

   Both links, altough different to each other, are completely symmetrical in respect to their Standing ends and tails.  That is the beauty of this dressing ! I did not wish to spoil this symmetry by showing a picture of the one of the two identical configurations. I had pictures with short tails, too, but when I decided to post something about this dressing, I just couldn't resist the temptation to show the symmetrical ones.  :)  
  No, I have not done any detailed tests, either with the climbing kernmantle ropes of the pictures or with smaller diameter ropes, monofilament, e.t.c. ( And I do not believe that all practical knots should not be jamming knots ! On the contrary, most practical knots used in planet earth nowadays are, in fact, jamming knots, i.e. fishing knots.) I was so happy to tie this bend again, after a long time, and admire the way the two different links kiss each other, the gentle curves, the unexpected symmetry...I had not the time required for detailed tests, neither the means to perform them. I hope more experienced members of this forum would test it, and report their results.
   OPT !  :) (Other people s tests...)
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 12:49:43 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

roo

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Re: A beautiful Water bend
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2011, 05:35:00 PM »
On the contrary, most practical knots used in planet earth nowadays are, in fact, jamming knots, i.e. fishing knots.) I was so happy to tie this bend again, after a long time, and admire the way the two different links kiss each other, the gentle curves, the unexpected symmetry...I had not the time required for detailed tests, neither the means to perform them. I hope more experienced members of this forum would test it, and report their results.
   OPT !  :) (Other people s tests...)
So are these supposed to be bends for rope or fishing knots?

Small diameter braided nylon rope is easily available and is much cheaper than the camera you're using to snap pictures.  Pulling knots hard with two bars in a calf raise exercise takes less time than taking and posting pictures.

If you do some testing yourself, you'll save countless others frustration in figuring out how you want the bend or angling knot loaded.  You'll also save them frustration in getting jammed knots in their ropes and possibly ruining the parts of their ropes that are welded with your latest permutation.

Those who have played with making random knot permutations themselves know that 99% of such permutations aren't very desirable or useful from a practical point of view (not to say anything about the knots presented here). 
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SS369

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Re: A beautiful Water bend
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2011, 07:38:03 PM »
Hello Roo and good day.

Quote: "Those who have played with making random knot permutations themselves know that 99% of such permutations aren't very desirable or useful from a practical point of view (not to say anything about the knots presented here)."

I myself have "played with" random permutations of knots and have come away with some interesting tangles that I can not find in any literature commonly available. Yes, the Knotting Matters magazine did have one or more, but to the wannabee ;-)  knot expert there is no better place than right here to be posting some of what they have entangled.
More people should show us what they've got!

By sharing these works of imagination they can either be debunked, down right dismissed out of hand, explored and discussed and even tested by those who have more knowledge and the results shared to the lesser folks.

I for one do test the knots of others at home in my make shift knotting emporium. Sometimes I load them extreme in my shop or using a tree(s) in the yard. Some I tie, get a feel for it and make a decision to comment or not to comment. If I have nothing constructive I will refrain.

Since this is the Practical section (and we don't have a New Knot section per se) I would think that constructive critique would/could be the theme of the day(s).
Share your time earned knowledge on what has been presented. Or perhaps an untested opinion that someone interested enough will try in their own "test facility".

Quote: "Those who have played with making random knot permutations themselves know that 99% of such permutations aren't very desirable or useful from a practical point of view (not to say anything about the knots presented here)."

If nothing else this sort of thing can lead to more involvement, greater interest in the craft we care about and even better understanding. Might even get a undiscovered knot out of the deal.
I feel certain that this type of twiddling has led a few members here.

Quote:
"If you do some testing yourself, you'll save countless others frustration in figuring out how you want the bend or angling knot loaded.  You'll also save them frustration in getting jammed knots in their ropes and possibly ruining the parts of their ropes that are welded with your latest permutation."

Are we callus enough to inhibit others from trying things out? Do you really care to save some new knot tyer the frustration of undoing a jammed knot. It is all part of  the learning process and if we discuss it here, regardless of the OP's possible lack of jam testing, we may get that information all the same. Maybe by someone who accidentally tied this knot and it got jammed and in what kind of rope/situation.


SS

CreditonJules

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Re: A beautiful Water bend
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2011, 08:08:59 PM »
   Pictures of a beautiful Water bend, that I now call Water 8 bend : because the rope of the one of the two links follows a graceful symmetric space curve in the form of an 8.


I don't know too much about the technical side of knotting all I can say is that I think it is a pretty yay "beautiful" knot!

Do you have any (simple) instructions on how to tie it Xarax?

CreditonJules
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xarax

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Re: A beautiful Water bend
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2011, 08:43:06 PM »
   Thank you CreditonJules,

I don't know too much about the technical side of knotting all I can say is that I think it is a pretty yay "beautiful" knot!

  I myself do not know much either...but I wish not learn more, if this would make me forget what a beautiful thing is !
 (A sad situation, that some times characterizes sophisticated "experts" in any narrow field of knowledge, I am afraid...)
   To start tying this not, have a look at the first picture (loose knot). Then, by pulling both ends slowly, you should be able to reach at the tightened knot you see at the other pictures. It may not be as easy as I describe, but, after a few times you will get the feeling of it. Dressing of knots is never an easy task, and it can not be described by words or pictures as completely as the general "topological" structure.
This is not a knot.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: A beautiful Water bend
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2011, 11:06:18 PM »
Since this is the Practical Knots forum,

 have you tested it in small-diameter nylon under high strain for jamming? 

 ::)  The phrasing implies a sequitur,
to which I quote the French "non"!

On the OP's latest mind-wandering, I don't fancy its asymmetry
in an end-2-end joiner; but it begs checking for an eye-knot.

Taking the orange for the S.Part's overhand form, with the
white the tail's completion, and tying this in 11mm dynamic
rope (since I'm practical, I don't climb with small-dia cord),
and gave a good stressing (500#?) on the pulley.  AND I
could untie it, by pushing eyelegs-vs-S.Part+tail into the
nub.  Now, I'm skeptical if this would work so well after
taking "a whipper" (big fall), though.  It wouldn't surprise
me if this eye-knot (so oriented) is very strong, as the S.Part
seems to get a rather broad compression and curvature.
But it's fiddly to tie & dress just so, and --again-- non so
likely to be easily untied, as far as rockclimbing loading goes.

--dl*
====

ps:  X., are there such things as "climbing gyms" near you?
It occurs to me that they might have an occasional batch
of short pieces of rope to discard (cut up old in-house ropes,
to ensure that no one uses them to climb with).  These of course
would also be imPractically not-small, but nicely colorful, and
likely firmer and rougher than your new stuff --just another
medium to play around in.  --and (one hopes) free!

xarax

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Re: A beautiful Water bend
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2011, 11:33:04 PM »
   Thank you, Dan Lehman,

I don't fancy its asymmetry in an end-2-end joiner; but it begs checking for an eye-knot.

   Neither do I. I am a great fun of symmetric bends. However, you have to admit that it is a rare thing
   1. to have two different links, one Overhand-knot looking and another Eight-knot looking, interlinked in one bend, so that the bend itself is symmetric in an interchange of tails and Standing ends. (This symmetry transformation leaves it invariant).
   2. Both those two links to have Standing parts going through wide curves, OF ABOUT THE SAME CURVATURE

But it's fiddly to tie & dress just 

   I can not judge this any more, because I am used to tie it after so many times.  :)
   I follow the route from the loose knot, shown in the first picture. AND  I am careful not to tie the Water X bend instead (where the two links are identical).

... are there such things as "climbing gyms" near you? It occurs to me that they might have an occasional batch of short pieces of rope to discard

  Good idea !  :) However, I suspect that most of them will have all those fancy patterns on them, that are looking so confusing in pictures...We need monochromatic ropes, a rare kind of ropes nowadays...
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roo

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Re: A beautiful Water bend
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2011, 12:18:42 AM »
So are these supposed to be bends for rope or fishing knots?
No.
If this is an admission that you are not proposing them for any practical purpose, why aren't you posting this "beautiful" knot in the decorative knot section?

Quote
If you do some testing yourself, you'll save countless others frustration in figuring out how you want the bend or angling knot loaded.  You'll also save them frustration in getting jammed knots in their ropes and possibly ruining the parts of their ropes that are welded with your latest permutation.

I give them the following advice : Do make yourself a favour : do not tie my bends. You yourself do obviously follow this advice, why do you suppose that other people are unable to do the same ?
??? Why are you presenting these knots if you don't expect others to tie them?

Quote
(not to say anything about the knots presented here).

  But you did not, did you ? You just told me, in others words, again, that I should not post anything, because you are not interested on it. I do not believe you will ever say anything about my knots, judging from your stance in more than 100 knots I have presented till now. I think your own performance are well below the 1 % ... :)
I did not say that you should not post anything.  I'm proposing that you do at least some practical testing before posting in a Practical Knot forum.  If, on the other hand, you are just exploring knot aesthetics, we have a whole forum section just for that: 

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?board=5.0

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SS369

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Re: A beautiful Water bend
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2011, 12:22:18 AM »
I found when tying this that it is actually two overhand knots that one has assumed a 8 style when dressing, but still an overhand all the same.
I tried it with dissimilar sized ropes, 11mm and 8mm dynamic, and it binds tightly using my loops for hand and foot power set up. Fairly easy  to untie too, though I don't know how easy it would be at greater loading. Gut feel says it would be a bear.
I like that both the SP's enter straight, pass through the core straight to be nipped before the first turn.

It did deform from the "pretty" under loading and that could be solely related to the two different ropes used.
I used the thicker rope for THE Overhand and the smaller rope for the Twisted Overhand.

SS

xarax

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Re: A beautiful Water bend
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2011, 01:15:03 AM »
Thank you, SS369,

it is actually two overhand knots that one has assumed a 8 style when dressing, but still an overhand all the same.

  Of course ! It is a Water bend re-dressed ! Dressing can not change the topology of a knot. The geometrical shapes, the 3D curves, are different, one like an ordinary overhand-knot shape, the other like an 8 shape. I like your wording : "Twisted Overhand" for the 8-shaped link.

 I tried it with dissimilar sized ropes,
  I used the thicker rope for THE Overhand and the smaller rope for the Twisted Overhand.

   Oh, No ! You have killed it !  :) This particular dressing is fragile enough, I think, so when you tie the knot with ropes of differert sizes and materials, you run the danger to deform it completely ! If you lose the symmetry, you better offer the knot to roo, to prove something...

« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 01:15:53 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

SS369

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Re: A beautiful Water bend
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2011, 01:24:53 AM »
Absolutely nothing wrong with a quick test of dissimilar diameter ropes.
You never know if it will be the better knot unless you try.
;-)
I did try it the other way as well.

SS

xarax

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Re: A beautiful Water bend
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2011, 01:43:32 AM »
   Which way ? The Water X bend ? If you have not done it already, try that, too, and compare those two similar structures :
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2154.0

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SS369

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Re: A beautiful Water bend
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2011, 02:34:17 AM »
Absolutely nothing wrong with a quick test of dissimilar diameter ropes.
You never know if it will be the better knot unless you try.
;-)
I did try it the other way as well.  <<<

SS

I meant that I reversed the big rope for the twisted overhand and the smaller for the 'Plain" OH.