Author Topic: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing  (Read 17850 times)

Hrungnir

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Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
« on: February 10, 2011, 12:06:05 AM »
I'm actually looking for a good all round loop I can use when I'm outdoor hiking and skiing.

The bowline works for most tasks, but it has one major fault - it works loose. I don't wanna tie important equipment like a lanyard to my cell phone or compass with a bowline. Right now I'm using the zeppelin loop. It does the job but, you can't tie it in a hurry and I don't like the combination of many steps and cold fingers ;)

I want a loop which can be tied fast and easily (cold fingers), easy to release but doesn't work loos. Easy to recognize.


My experience so far:

Bowline - works loose
Round turn bowline - it holds better than the original bowline, but in my experience it might work loose still.
Zeppelin loop - too many steps to make the knot
Retreaded figure eight - too many steps to make the knot
Alpine butterfly - in my experience it jams. I also find the knot hard to recognize


I don't have enough experience with the double dragon and perfection loop. Would any of these perform better than the mentioned knots? Do you have other suggestions or comments to the knots above?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 12:07:01 AM by Hrungnir »

roo

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Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2011, 12:25:35 AM »
I'm actually looking for a good all round loop I can use when I'm outdoor hiking and skiing.

The bowline works for most tasks, but it has one major fault - it works loose. I don't wanna tie important equipment like a lanyard to my cell phone or compass with a bowline. Right now I'm using the zeppelin loop. It does the job but, you can't tie it in a hurry and I don't like the combination of many steps and cold fingers ;)

I want a loop which can be tied fast and easily (cold fingers), easy to release but doesn't work loos. Easy to recognize.


My experience so far:

Bowline - works loose
Round turn bowline - it holds better than the original bowline, but in my experience it might work loose still.
Zeppelin loop - too many steps to make the knot
Retreaded figure eight - too many steps to make the knot
Alpine butterfly - in my experience it jams. I also find the knot hard to recognize


I don't have enough experience with the double dragon and perfection loop. Would any of these perform better than the mentioned knots? Do you have other suggestions or comments to the knots above?
The Double Dragon loop is quite difficult to tie as end loop, threading through an object (and it can jam when used as a midline loop in certain conditions).  The Perfection Loop might fare a little better in tying as an end loop, but it is a known jammer.  If you want something with a little more security than a Double Bowline, you might experiment with a Water Bowline.

I'm actually surprised that you're tying and untying your aforementioned items so often.  Maybe a small clip would be worth it to you.

Would you be open to hitches?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 12:30:04 AM by roo »
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SS369

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Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2011, 12:32:08 AM »
"I don't wanna tie important equipment like a lanyard to my cell phone or compass with a bowline."

For those items I personally would make a sling with small cord for each or both(?) and then have the item tied to the attachment points with any number of hitches. Use a cow hitch on both ends of the sling for example. Very simple that way.

Hope that helps.

SS

roo

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Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2011, 12:38:21 AM »
"I don't wanna tie important equipment like a lanyard to my cell phone or compass with a bowline."

For those items I personally would make a sling with small cord for each or both(?) and then have the item tied to the attachment points with any number of hitches. Use a cow hitch on both ends of the sling for example. Very simple that way.

Hope that helps.

SS
If he only has access to one end of the attaching cord, he could leave the Zeppelin Loop in place permanently, run it through the lanyard, and put the object through the Zeppelin loop.

If the object's attachment hole/ring is too small to pass a loop knot, a separate small lanyard could be attached (small cord and one bend).
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 12:48:05 AM by roo »
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knot4u

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Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2011, 12:47:49 AM »
Can you describe your setup a bit more because it's a bit unclear?  Anyway, I have found clever usage of a Cow Hitch or a Bull Hitch to be preferable in many applications involving lanyards and such.  Many times, a simple Cow has caused me to say, "Now, why didn't I think of that before now?"

A Cow (or Bull) may be tied, for example, within a permanent Zeppelin Loop.  Another option is to make a giant loop by tying a some sort of bend (e.g., Zeppelin, Carrick, Butterfly), and then using a Cow somehow to connect what you want.  In the short, the lanyard or whatever is installed and removed via the Cow (or Bull).  These are just general tips as it's unclear what your setup is exactly.

My experience so far:
...
Alpine butterfly - in my experience it jams. I also find the knot hard to recognize
...

I don't like the Butterfly as an end loop.  Anyway, what application made it jam on you?  I have found the Fig 8 Loop to more jam-prone.  Are you sure you're tying the Butterfly correctly?  It is easy to tie incorrectly.  
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 01:10:32 AM by knot4u »

Hrungnir

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Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2011, 01:07:19 AM »
I don't wanna tie important equipment like a lanyard to my cell phone or compass with a bowline.

I'm sorry. This sentence was a bit unclear.

Actually I'm using the zeppelin to tie the lanyard to my jacket, backpack og belt. The other end of the lanyard is attached to the object with whatever knot works for that object.

I've uploaded a picture with a lighter attached to a twine with a double constrictor knot. The other end is attached to the backpack with a zeppelin loop.



I'm a bit paranoid with some of my small stuff equipment. I'm very afraid my cell phone might fall out of my pockets and get lost. Same thing about car keys, pocket knife, lighter and so on. I often use the setup above to make sure nothing fall out of my pockets or I accidentally forget something where I had my last break.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 01:17:46 AM by Hrungnir »

knot4u

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Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2011, 01:14:44 AM »
I don't wanna tie important equipment like a lanyard to my cell phone or compass with a bowline.

I'm sorry. This sentence was a bit unclear.

Actually I'm using the zeppelin to tie the lanyard to my jacket, backpack og belt. The other end of the lanyard is attached to the object with whatever knot works for that object.

I've uploaded a picture with a lighter attached to the lanyard with a double constrictor knot. The other end is attached to the backpack with a zeppelin loop.



Right there, here's what I would have done instead:

-Around lighter, tie a Boom Hitch with ends of roughly equal length.
-Connect ends by using a bend (e.g., Zeppelin, Carrick, or Butterfly).  The result is a large loop with the lighter secured via the Boom.
-Connect the large loop to the jacked by using a Cow Hitch (or Bull Hitch).  The result is a setup that's secure and easily removable from your jacket via the Cow.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 01:21:30 AM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2011, 01:15:36 AM »
I'm sorry. This sentence was a bit unclear.

Actually I'm using the zeppelin to tie the lanyard to my jacket, backpack og belt. The other end of the lanyard is attached to the object with whatever knot works for that object.

I've uploaded a picture with a lighter attached to the lanyard with a double constrictor knot. The other end is attached to the backpack with a zeppelin loop.
In this case, the permanent Zeppelin Loop could pass through the jacket loop, and then the object can be passed through the Zeppelin Loop.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 01:16:25 AM by roo »
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Hrungnir

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Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2011, 02:09:22 AM »
I don't like the Butterfly as an end loop.  Anyway, what application made it jam on you?  I have found the Fig 8 Loop to more jam-prone.  Are you sure you're tying the Butterfly correctly?  It is easy to tie incorrectly.  
I'm using tying method number four on this website:
http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_SingleLoops.htm#AlpineButterfly

The overhand knot really bites around the working end and standing end. I can't figure out how to release this knot easily  ???

Quote from: knot4yu
-Around lighter, tie a Boom Hitch with ends of roughly equal length.
The important thing about the binder is that it really bites into the object. That's why I've been using the (double) constrictor this task. The constrictor is simple enough to tie outdoor when it's cold and you don't wanna use too much time on knotting. I don't have any experience with the boom hitch, but are you able to make it bite really hard into the object? Simple and fast to tie?

Hrungnir

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Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2011, 02:14:08 AM »
For those items I personally would make a sling with small cord for each or both(?) and then have the item tied to the attachment points with any number of hitches. Use a cow hitch on both ends of the sling for example. Very simple that way.

Quote from: roo
If he only has access to one end of the attaching cord, he could leave the Zeppelin Loop in place permanently, run it through the lanyard, and put the object through the Zeppelin loop.

If the object's attachment hole/ring is too small to pass a loop knot, a separate small lanyard could be attached (small cord and one bend).


Seems like there's an general agreement on these suggestions. Either a sling or ring of a zeppelin loop and attach the lanyards with cow hitches. Can probably attach a mug or a bottle to the backpack in the same manner :)
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 02:22:15 AM by Hrungnir »

Mike

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Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2011, 03:24:53 AM »
The Double Dragon loop is quite difficult to tie as end loop, threading through an object (and it can jam when used as a midline loop in certain conditions).

Tying the DD is actually extremely simple to tie  around an object.  In fact, I bet I can tie it just as fast if not faster , than any other method.

knot4u

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Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2011, 03:59:48 AM »
I understand your dilemma because I'm an avid snowboarder.  Sometimes, it's so cold that it's literally dangerous to have your hands exposed at all.  Based on your need to make these attachments in the cold, I recommend setting things up beforehand so you would only have to tie Cow Hitches out there.  In the cold, I wouldn't even enjoy that otherwise easy task.

I don't like the Butterfly as an end loop.  Anyway, what application made it jam on you?  I have found the Fig 8 Loop to more jam-prone.  Are you sure you're tying the Butterfly correctly?  It is easy to tie incorrectly.  
I'm using tying method number four on this website:
http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_SingleLoops.htm#AlpineButterfly

The overhand knot really bites around the working end and standing end. I can't figure out how to release this knot easily???

I can see how the Butterfly has been difficult to untie from where you were. To untie the Butterfly easily, first, you need to get the Butterfly to look like Pic#7 of Method #1 in that link. You may get to that pic by pulling the ends in opposite directions until the knot takes on that form. However, if the Butterfly is already too tight, it may be difficult to get there. So, you need to get to Pic #7 before you apply loading. However, before you do all this, note that I don't even like the Butterfly as an end loop.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 04:22:12 AM by knot4u »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2011, 04:45:48 AM »
I'm actually looking for a good all round loop I can use when I'm outdoor hiking and skiing.

The bowline works for most tasks, but it has one major fault - it works loose.
...
I want a loop which can be tied fast and easily (cold fingers), easy to release but doesn't work loos. Easy to recognize.

Knot4U has almost asked the question that everyone's been missing,
but which I'd hope would become more the initial question on the
mind --to move from thinking of "knots" as having unconditional
qualities to realizing that various materials knot in different ways;
so, the question needs to be What is it that you want to knot?
--what material?


And to Roo's
"I'm actually surprised that you're tying and untying your aforementioned items so often."
I say +1 !!  The easy & sure attachment, as has been suggested,
is to have a sling suitable to be inserted through some small
attachment ring and then girth-hitched.

(Btw, you could tie a sling through your jacket hole and then
tie a constrictor or double (no further, though) constrictor
around that cylindrical object --can't do that with a boom hitch
(which is an odd knot to use).)

The bowline can be secured pretty simply, in some materials.

--dl*
====

knot4u

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Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2011, 06:06:58 AM »
I have successfully tied a Boom for attaching a rope to items such as a small flashlight, a wrench, an extension cord, a pill capsule and other items.  I may then tie a Girth (i.e., Cow) in the rope to something else, such as a keyring.  A Double Constrictor may work too, but it's usually not my preference.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 08:03:34 AM by knot4u »

dmacdd

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Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2011, 08:51:57 AM »
I have successfully tied a Boom for attaching a rope to items such as a small flashlight, a wrench, an extension cord, a pill capsule and other items.  I may then tie a Girth (i.e., Cow) in the rope to something else, such as a keyring.  A Double Constrictor may work too, but it's usually not my preference.

I  attach a plastic lighter with an elliptical cross section to each of my spools of nylon cord by a lanyard.  The lanyard is fastened to its lighter with a double constrictor. It works very well, and never seems to come adrift, but I check it each time I use it, of course.

 

anything