Author Topic: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing  (Read 16843 times)

Hrungnir

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Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2011, 02:17:25 PM »
I can see how the Butterfly has been difficult to untie from where you were. To untie the Butterfly easily, first, you need to get the Butterfly to look like Pic#7 of Method #1 in that link. You may get to that pic by pulling the ends in opposite directions until the knot takes on that form. However, if the Butterfly is already too tight, it may be difficult to get there. So, you need to get to Pic #7 before you apply loading. However, before you do all this, note that I don't even like the Butterfly as an end loop.
You are absolutley right about the behaviour of the butterfly. It's easier to untie if you mange to pull the ends to make the knot take the "midline" form. I don't know the security of the knot in the "midline" form as an end loop. I realize and agree with you that there are better end loops than the bytterfly.

Hrungnir

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Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2011, 02:38:48 PM »
Knot4U has almost asked the question that everyone's been missing,
but which I'd hope would become more the initial question on the
mind --to move from thinking of "knots" as having unconditional
qualities to realizing that various materials knot in different ways;
so, the question needs to be What is it that you want to knot?
--what material?

When going hiking and skiing I'm mostly using the twine you saw on the picture. It's 2mm polyester. I use this line for all kind of tasks. Lanyards, attaching stuff to my jacket or backpack. Organize or packing my stuff. I can also use it to repair some items. I use mostly binding knots, but a good fixed loop might be handy, like a replacement for the zeppelin in the previous discussion

I also bring some thicker line. Probably 1cm nylon. The line is three laid. Right now there's an eye splice in the end of the rope, so I can easily use that as a fixed loop or use it to tie a girth hitch. It's easier to tie a zeppelin on this rope than the twine, but I welcome suggestions for improvement :)

The bowline can be secured pretty simply, in some materials.
I often see people securing the bowline with a double overhand knot. The bowline becomes more difficult to tie and untie because of this. I do prefer the zeppelin loop, or a round turn bowline if working loose is not that big of a concern.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 04:50:17 PM by Hrungnir »

roo

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Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2011, 03:44:55 PM »
The Double Dragon loop is quite difficult to tie as end loop, threading through an object (and it can jam when used as a midline loop in certain conditions).

Tying the DD is actually extremely simple to tie  around an object.  In fact, I bet I can tie it just as fast if not faster , than any other method.

This is probably a good topic for a new thread.  Every time I ask someone to show a supposed quick and easy way to tie the Double Dragon around an object, I get a diagram of a convoluted, error-prone method.
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SS369

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Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2011, 03:57:01 PM »
Here's as good as any I've found for the DD loop Roo > http://www.Layhands.com/Knots/Knots_SingleLoops.htm#DoubleDragon

Method 2

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roo

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Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2011, 04:00:20 PM »
Here's as good as any I've found for the DD loop Roo > http://www.Layhands.com/Knots/Knots_SingleLoops.htm#DoubleDragon

I was hoping no one would suggest that.  That is exactly the convoluted, error-prone method I was thinking of.
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dmacdd

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Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2011, 04:13:28 PM »
I can see how the Butterfly has been difficult to untie from where you were. To untie the Butterfly easily, first, you need to get the Butterfly to look like Pic#7 of Method #1 in that link. You may get to that pic by pulling the ends in opposite directions until the knot takes on that form. However, if the Butterfly is already too tight, it may be difficult to get there. So, you need to get to Pic #7 before you apply loading. However, before you do all this, note that I don't even like the Butterfly as an end loop.
You are absolutley right about the behaviour of the butterfly. It's easier to untie if you mange to pull the ends to make the knot take the "midline" form. I don't know the security of the knot in the "midline" form as an end loop. I realize and agree with you that there are better end loops than the bytterfly.

I like the butterfly as an end loop, but to make it less jammable, I  tie it as an end loop, not as a butterfly loop that happens to be at the end of the cord. To to this you tie the end to the bight as if making a butterfly bend. The natural working   form of the knot is the familiar butterfly, but with the parts of the cord playing different parts. Stress on the loop keeps it in this form, so there is no need to transform it back into butterfly form to untie it. See my web page on this at http://davidmdelaney.com/alpine-butterfly-loop/Alpine-butterfly-bend-loop.html. Also see the attached picture.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 08:02:37 PM by dmacdd »

SS369

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Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2011, 04:31:45 PM »
Quote: "I was hoping no one would suggest that.  That is exactly the convoluted, error-prone method I was thinking of.

I'm sorry Roo.
But I have absolutely no problem tying it the way that is shown.
Can you explain to me why/how it is error prone to you?

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roo

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Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2011, 05:34:26 PM »
I'm sorry Roo.
But I have absolutely no problem tying it the way that is shown.
Can you explain to me why/how it is error prone to you?
Just to be clear to everyone, we're looking at Method #2.

Picture 2:  Which way is the coil made?  There are about four ways.  Nothing forces the correct option.

Picture 3:  Which way do you flip the coil over?  How is it "flipped"?  Nothing forces the correct way.  Our odds of error are getting very high, even at this early stage.

Picture 5:  Which way does the cord wrap around the knot body/skeleton?  Nothing forces the right option.  

Picture 6:  You have many easy ways to mis-tuck the ends.

In my opinion, this method is several steps beyond being memorable and it is ripe for error even among knot nerds.  This method would fail the one-month or several month mental fast test, where you see if you can tie the knot from memory after not using or thinking about the method for the allotted time period.  I think even one week after studying the method would be too long.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 05:54:06 PM by roo »
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knot4u

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Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2011, 06:03:41 PM »
I can see how the Butterfly has been difficult to untie from where you were. To untie the Butterfly easily, first, you need to get the Butterfly to look like Pic#7 of Method #1 in that link. You may get to that pic by pulling the ends in opposite directions until the knot takes on that form. However, if the Butterfly is already too tight, it may be difficult to get there. So, you need to get to Pic #7 before you apply loading. However, before you do all this, note that I don't even like the Butterfly as an end loop.
You are absolutley right about the behaviour of the butterfly. It's easier to untie if you mange to pull the ends to make the knot take the "midline" form. I don't know the security of the knot in the "midline" form as an end loop. I realize and agree with you that there are better end loops than the bytterfly.

I like the butterfly as an end loop, but to make it less jammable, I  tie it as an end loop, not as a butterfly loop that happens to be at the end of the cord. To to this you tie the end to the bight as if making a butterfly bend. The natural working   form of the knot is the familiar butterfly, but with the parts of the cord playing different parts. Stress on the loop keeps it in this form, so there is no need to transform it back into butterfly form to untie it. See my web page on this at http://davidmdelaney.com/alpine-butterfly-loop/Alpine-butterfly-bend-loop.htm. Also see the attached picture.

Hey, that's a good looking loop.  I see your point.  If you have enough data, please compare that loop to the 2-Wrap Bowline and the Zeppelin Loop.  Or do you know of a thread?

By the way, that link did not work for me.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 06:11:32 PM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2011, 06:22:19 PM »
By the way, that link did not work for me.
David just left off the final L.   Remember this thread?:  

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1878.0
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 06:23:21 PM by roo »
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Hrungnir

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Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2011, 06:23:13 PM »
By the way, that link did not work for me.

This is the correct address for dmacdd link:
http://davidmdelaney.com/alpine-butterfly-loop/Alpine-butterfly-bend-loop.html

With some practice it might be easier and faster to tie than the zeppelin loop. The knot is recognizable if you already know the bight version. When you put tension on the line you won't get the version/structure which jams. Seems like a good end loop :)

SS369

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Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2011, 07:20:37 PM »
Good day Roo.

First, I was not recommending this loop for the thread's answer. I was merely pointing to a series of pictures that showed, to me, a simple method (#2) of tying it around an object.

For me the method is very easy and don't see a problem. Everyone's learning curve is different.

Memory is a whole different story! Passing the one hour/day/week/month test(s) is a challenge for sure.
How many tying methods for knots I barely or just don't tie would I need to refresh myself on? Good question!

All that said, I think if this loop fulfills someone's need then they can learn it...... and maybe even remember it.  ;-)

SS369

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Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2011, 07:30:09 PM »
Good day knot4u.

Yes, I agree with you that the DD loop can jam and quickly too, but it is pretty darn secure for a narrow leg loop.

Not my pick for the easiest to tie with cold hands and gloves on.

Adding a slip as the final tuck may help. Maybe even a double tucked slip.

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roo

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Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2011, 07:39:00 PM »
OK, so the Double Dragon is pretty freakin' hard to untie once there's a heavy load on it.  Is there a trick?
While I don't generally recommend the loop for various reasons, it does seem to resist jamming IF it is only loaded as an end loop, with no tension on what is usually the free end.

If you've found some dressing that permits jamming as an end loop, perhaps you could post a diagram or image of it (in a new thread... we've hijacked this thread too much as it is).
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Fixed loop for hiking and skiing
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2011, 08:08:03 PM »
For me the method is very easy and don't see a problem. Everyone's learning curve is different.
Quote from: roo
Which way is the coil made?  There are about four ways.
Nothing forces the correct option.
Which way do you flip the coil over?  How is it "flipped"?
Nothing forces the correct way.
Our odds of error are getting very high, even at this early stage.
...

I know what everybody's thinking, now : How does Roo do shoes?!
Which foot to do first --there are about two of them, (and that's 4 laces!)
 ...

 :D

Both the particular "Double Dragon" AND the tying method shown
by the Layhands site are less than optimal, IMO.  Given the "doubled"
aspect, though, that knot isn't bad, but taking the tail wraps in the
other direction yields a much better knot on the first pass, with then
the 2nd as added assurance vs. necessity.

The initial coil around the finger is easily done, and only one way,
given the hand and gravity.
But then the next step should be to sorta *slap* the tail smack
into this coil and see that as the *inspiration* for turning up the
coil to form the crossing-knot form.
And after this is done, tail extending leftwards/S.Partwards with
length sufficient for wrapping, the wrapping can only go in
one direction --opposite to Layhands's direction, hence.

None of which is much easy in the fine-twine-cold-fingers
circumstance of the OP.  But not much is, frankly.

--dl*
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