Author Topic: ABoK #1031 vs Shake Hands  (Read 19660 times)

roo

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Re: ABoK #1031 vs Shake Hands
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2011, 05:58:12 PM »
Tied as a bend, rather than a loop as shown in ABoK, the knot performs very well.
I think it's going to be too easy to mis-tie.  And, as a bend, it jams too easily.
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roo

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Re: ABoK #1031 vs Shake Hands
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2011, 07:09:46 PM »
Geoffrey Budworth has a great illustration on the Shakehands Bend in his book and says it is almost an unknown bend. He also claims it's a very strong and secure bend. I'd like to see the shakehands bend tested against well known heavyweights such as the Zeppelin and Butterfly Bends.

Off topic, but the Ashley Bend looks just like the Alpine butterfly bend IMO, what's the difference?
I find that the Shake Hands gets a bit too hard to untie after heavy strain.

Further info on The Ashley Bend versus the Alpine Butterfly Bend:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/butterflybend.html
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: ABoK #1031 vs Shake Hands
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2011, 09:41:22 PM »
Quote
 If a bend slips more than another in a particular -most slippery - material,
 then, ceteris paribus,
 it will slip more than the other in any -less slippery- material.
???

Non sequitur, well enough demonstrated by tests to rupture
(sans slippage) of various bends (such as the Sheet bend).
Breaking w/o slippage is equal to like behavior, of course.

Moreover, what is slippery for one material knotted with Knot-A
might be not so slippery in another : at least in manual loading
(and maybe I used pulley-assist), I was surprised to find some
mid-line eyeknot NOT slipping when loaded on ends, tied in
low-friction 12-strand HMPE (Spectra 900); yet it showed
pretty immediate slippage in 6mm nylon kernmantle accessory
cord (presumably because of firmer roundness) !?  And yet in
other knots, surely it will be the 12-strand Spectra that slips.

Quote
the Ashley Bend looks just like the ... butterfly bend IMO, what's the difference?

While it might be Ashley's #1408 that carries closer resemblance
to the butterfly, what you're seeing is the similarity of these
knots' collars around SParts and interlocked overhands --common
features that yield common benefits of security and easy untying.

The butterfly has some reputation for difficult untying when loaded
qua eyeknot --and being both asymmetric AND dress-able variously,
one can only speculate on what exact geometry led to this behavior--,
but does well qua bend.  #1452 can be dressed so as to facilitate
jamming (think : joining springy slick PP lines), or to preclude it.
In likely general use, it is quite easily untied.  Alas, instruction on
tying it fails to articulate these finer points, so one tends to get
some happenstance geometry.

You can find images of some interlocked-overhands knots in the
thread entitled "Ashley's Bend #1452 & Its Ilk"
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1446.0
(And I just took some of the butterfly mid-line eyeknot and #1408
which I can post.)

Quote
Ashley's Bend, 1452, jams easily.

Except in the particular dressing referred to above, this hyperbole
is unwarranted.  I'll be happy though to see a photo of such a jammed
knot, to try to understand what knot deformation has occurred.
Given the cited test material --1/16"(!!) nylon braid--, it will need to
be a macro shot nicely enlarged.

Quote
Geoffrey Budworth has a great illustration on the Shakehands Bend in his book and says it is almost an unknown bend. He also claims it's a very strong and secure bend. I'd like to see the shakehands bend tested against well known heavyweights such as the Zeppelin and Butterfly Bends

Over a decade ago, with information posted to rec.crafts.knots,
a fellow in Louisiana did some A-vs-B testing of many bends
tied in small stuff (1/4" to 3/8", mostly at the small size(s));
among knots tested in this sort of strength tournament were:
Blood knot, grapevine, dbl. grapevine, fisherman's knot, #1408,
#1425, #1425a, #1452, Rosenthal's Zep., Shakehands, & Fig.8;

each test specimen had A & B knots, and the ends were anchored
by Fig.8 eyeknots.  The eyeknots *won* all cases (!);
the Blood knot topped the bends, and #1425 was I think tops
of the interlocked-overhands.  Shakehands was lower of this set.
But this is one sampling, in limited materials, and with a particular
rather dynamic loading.  YMMV in other ways of using "strength";
e.g., the course of using a rope w/an end-2-end joint might see
some abrasion become a factor; the fisherman's knot is a good
one resisting that, where some others might fare worse.


--dl*
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SaltyCracker

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Re: ABoK #1031 vs Shake Hands
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2011, 12:17:03 AM »
And the knot slippage and line weakening comparison tests say?
                                                        Interesting results in comparing the ABoK #1031 bend to Shakehands:

In 80 lb test mono: Both knots were formed, sprayed with lubricant, set (tightened), and then stretched between two 1" dowel rods. Both knots were tied in the same test line to determine which parted first. Round turns and scaffold knots were used on the dowel rods. After tying the test knots and securing the test line ends to the dowels, one dowel was held between my feet, the other in both hands. The line was stretched until something parted. Until one of the knots parted, both test knots held without notable slipping. Twice the line parted at the scaffold knot. But every time (4 of 4) the Shakehands won out over the ABoK #1031 for strength, i.e. the line parted at the ABoK #1031 bend. (By the way, when 80 lb test mono parts between you legs.... i.e. don't try this at home.)

Now, switching to 40 lb test braided Dacron same setup but without the lubricant, both knots showed no appreciable slip, and, except for a test using a previously tested ABoK #1031 going up against a freshly tied Shakehands, ABoK #1031 won out this time (3 out of 4) in this material.

« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 12:21:07 AM by SaltyCracker »

xarax

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Re: ABoK #1031 vs Shake Hands
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2011, 12:32:14 AM »
Quote
 If a bend slips more than another in a particular - most slippery - material, then, ceteris paribus, it will slip more than the other in any - less slippery - material.

???
Non sequitur, well enough demonstrated by tests to rupture
(sans slippage) of various bends (such as the Sheet bend).
Breaking w/o slippage is equal to like behavior, of course.

      My recommendation had nothing to do with rupture/breaking, of course. ( A detailed comparison of those two - similar in rope curves - bends, as regards rupture/breaking, can only be performed experimentally, in a well equipped laboratory.

   Moreover, what is slippery for one material knotted with Knot-A might be not so slippery in another...

  True, but only if the friction mechanisms of the two knots we want to compare are very different, I think.  A material used in a rope can be very effective, when the rope forms one kind of friction mechanism, and not so effective, when it forms another. So, I guess that a rope strand, made of a particular stiff material, can, indeed, be slippery in Knot -A, where it follows gentle helical curves around other strands, and it forms wide collars around many rope diameters, and not so slippery in Knot-B, where it is compressed by riding turns and it is gripped by nipping loops....However, the rope strands in ABoK#1031 and in ShakeHands follow very similar paths. So, I think that, if a certain material presents a very different behaviour when tied on those bends, this would probably have to do more with the bends themselves and less with the particular material.
   
 
This is not a knot.

xarax

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Re: ABoK #1031 vs Shake Hands
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2011, 12:37:26 AM »
   And the knot slippage and line weakening comparison tests say?

   Hat off, SaltyCracker ! You are a great amateur knot tester ! ( Would you, please, test some of my knots, too ?  :) )
This is not a knot.

knot4u

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Re: ABoK #1031 vs Shake Hands
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2011, 12:44:36 AM »
Ashley's bend may be more secure than the Alpine Butterfly Bend, either generally, or in some materials.

OK, but if the Ashley's Bend is going to jam (has before), then it is to be compared to other bends that also tend to jam.  That opens up a whole new world of competition.  By the way, my definition of a jam is a knot that is hard as hell to untie.  If an Ashley takes three minutes to loosen with tools, while a Butterfly takes 5 seconds with bare hands, then I consider the Ashley to be jammed in that situation.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 12:51:19 AM by knot4u »

SaltyCracker

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Re: ABoK #1031 vs Shake Hands
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2011, 02:39:17 AM »
How to tie ABoK #1031 in the bight w/load bearing line running through the knot.

Need to correct the above sentence from reply #1. It should have been:

How to tie ABoK #1031 as a bend w/load bearing line running through the knot.

SaltyCracker

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Re: ABoK #1031 vs Shake Hands
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2011, 01:41:15 AM »
As to ease of untying.
THE TEST - A loop was formed with ABoK #1031 joining the ends of a 4? length of 5/32? (3.5mm), braided poly line and the loop stretched between the two 1" dowel rods. I pulled as hard as I could, significantly more than the same force that it took to break the mono & Dacron fishing lines of the prior tests. Then the knot untied. Same test was performed with a sheet bend. Results: The sheet bend seemed a bit easier to untie but not enough for me to discredit the ABoK #1031.

In the same test with butterfly bend, the sheet bend was easier to untie, and the butterfly about the same as ABoK #1031 bend. (For me, the drawback of the butterfly and some of the other interlocking knots comes from the working ends exiting perpendicular to the knot.)

Ease of untying Shakehands was not tested because I find it too difficult to tie while in choppy water and don?t plan to use it. I suspect it to be similar to ABoK #1031. Butterfly tested for a comparison to a highly regarded knot in the IGKT forum.

In the field I've used Vice Versa and ABoK #1031 as a bend between similar and different sizes of Kevlar line used on speargun lineshafts. The shock and strain put on a knot during a speargun discharge is pretty impressive; yet, I?ve been able to untie both knots. ABoK is just easier (for me) to tie.

dmacdd

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Ashley's Bend jammed
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2011, 07:08:00 AM »

Quote
Ashley's Bend, 1452, jams easily.

Except in the particular dressing referred to above, this hyperbole
is unwarranted.  I'll be happy though to see a photo of such a jammed
knot, to try to understand what knot deformation has occurred.
Given the cited test material --1/16"(!!) nylon braid--, it will need to
be a macro shot nicely enlarged.


Dan

If the photos at http://davidmdelaney.com/jam-testing/ashley-jammed.html are not adequate for the purpose, I'll try re-lighting them, but it might take a while.

The test cord is 1/16" (1.6 mm) braided nylon.  I was then unable to untie the knot with a few minutes effort with fingernails.


David

EDIT This morning...

    I should have waited until I had a chance to stain one of the cords,  but it was way after my bed time. (The black spots were an afterthought.) I have a pot of tea on now to stain one of the cords, and I will improve the lighting.

« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 02:37:04 PM by dmacdd »

[Inkanyezi] gone

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Re: ABoK #1031 vs Shake Hands
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2011, 03:40:22 PM »
I tried the #1452 with 3 mm polyester braid, and by jerking two marlingspikes apart I jammed it easily. It needed some rather severe nudging with a fid before I could untie it. The problem is that the collar that must be released takes a longer course over the knot when it is pushed to release it. But the knot looks neat even when jammed. It can probably be jammed even harder, so that "a few light taps" might no longer help to release it.

I tried #1031 as a bend too, and it jammed even harder. There is only one desirable feature with that knot, it does not slip. But it is difficult to tie, prone to error, jamming hard and it has a bad lead. It is even one of the ugliest bends I have seen, its only competition Brion's inverted and capsized "Carrick". It is not a knot I would ever think of using.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 04:14:07 PM by Inkanyezi »
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: ABoK #1031 vs Shake Hands
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2011, 07:45:51 PM »
I tried the #1452 with 3 mm polyester braid,...

There is no "the" here, but at least two.  And, as I've noted previously
in a few threads, this version nicely readily jams, for such use as with
slippery, springy --unruly-- polypropylene, where loads are unlikely to
exceed untying ability (or where untying isn't wanted).

I have shown the non-jamming form in the other thread (#1452 & its ilk);
here's a fresh image, made to put the point "writ large" (larger cordage!)
--and one of #1408, for comparison & guidance on that.

 ;)
 

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Ashley's Bend jammed
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2011, 08:03:15 PM »
If the photos at http://davidmdelaney.com/jam-testing/ashley-jammed.html are not adequate for the purpose, I'll try re-lighting them, but it might take a while.

The test cord is 1/16" (1.6 mm) braided nylon.  I was then unable to untie the knot with a few minutes effort with fingernails.

David

EDIT This morning...

    I should have waited until I had a chance to stain one of the cords,  but it was way after my bed time. (The black spots were an afterthought.) I have a pot of tea on now to stain one of the cords, and I will improve the lighting.

David, thanks, these look decent, but --yeah-- having different-colored
cords would be best.  So far as I can tell, these are of the "non-jamming"
orientation --i.e., seems that one side's SPart draws the opposite tail.
Whether the initial dressing/setting could have anticipated this with
snugger/smaller collars, is another question.

But I resist the generalization of such a result to cordage in general.
I have certainly put force on larger stuff that must exceed usual
safe working loads / working-load limits and untied the knots
w/o trouble.  Going to really big stuff takes bigger loads and the
"without trouble" if it scales could challenge manual effort?
(I can't begin to tax the big stuff just photo'd and shown above!)

Slickness of material can see tension *flow* into a knot farther
along and with unexpected results, compared with frictive stuff.
That HMPE 12-strand cordage in which some knots of mine were
tested took a #1425-like eye knot and got it very tight (I have
not wanted to attempt to untie it, at this point --but am sure it
will take tools), whereas in many loadings of common cordage
that knot is not a problem (and one can adjust the tightness
of its binding turns in setting).  The HMPE just flowed around
and snugged up parts that don't see that transmission of tension
otherwise!  Wow!  (Just as seeing the double-turns of the Double
Bowline
move in the Brion Toss video --"huh, that can happen?!!")

And given slickness, nylon's elasticity and diminution of diameter
can aggravate the problem, the untensioned line outside of the
knot then fattening into stopper resistance, preserving the tensioned
interior (have seen signs of this aspect even with a bowline & tight
collar).



--dl*
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: ABoK #1031 vs Shake Hands
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2011, 08:16:23 PM »
In 80 lb test mono: ...
 Twice the line parted at the scaffold knot.
 But every time (4 of 4) the Shakehands won out over the ABoK #1031 for strength, ...

Now, switching to 40 lb test braided Dacron same setup but without the lubricant, both knots showed no appreciable slip, and, except for a test using a previously tested ABoK #1031 going up against a freshly tied Shakehands, ABoK #1031 won out this time (3 out of 4) in this material.

An interesting and maybe not uncommon mixture of results
which I doubt any would've predicted.

1) On the Scaffold knot breakage:  where's the break --i.e., is the knot
intact and the line broke at the noose-hitch's SPart (perhaps even leaving
knot around remainder and coils intact) ?
Any thoughts as to why this supposed very strong anchorage failed?
(Next time : try the Fig.8 eye knot --never failed in the testing I cited,
of small rope.)

2) Since you have ONE surviving Shakehands in Dacron, and all in mono,
can you assess high-load geometry of these?  --i.e., might that shed any
light on why the results are nearly opposite between the materials?

Just as one tends to miss details (not presented) and can see one report
of "1452 jammed" and another "did not" and think "huh?", the details
such as Ink's geometry vs. mine can resolve that apparent conflict --there
are actually different knots denoted by the label "1452".  In your case,
there might be some different shifting et cetera that can explain things,
otherwise one surmises it is a difference in materials' reaction to the
roughly same geometry.

Which should all point to the dubiousness of attaching "strength" as
an atrtibute to "knot" as a structure schema,
vs. a particular token formed in some cordage.

(Btw, if you feel up to it (did you employ a pillow guard against
snap-back or something?  --you obviously did know to take care!),
you might venture the Rosenthal's Zeppelin, which Knot4U got to
jam somehow in fishline; can you, too?)

--dl*
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SaltyCracker

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Re: ABoK #1031 vs Shake Hands
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2011, 11:58:27 PM »
To Dan's questions:

1) The dowel was 1", putting a significant spread in the yoke of the knot. From memory, the breaks seemed to occur on one of the inside legs of the the knot in both instances. Next time I test I'll pay better attention to the anchor knot breaks.

2) I can't address high-load geometry.

As to jamming. I'll try to re-run my jamming tests and take photos. Just about any knot can jam if put under enough strain. My point was that under the test, #1031 didn't jam beyond an acceptable amount for me to discount the knot... Totally subjective...
« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 11:14:33 AM by SaltyCracker »