Author Topic: trident loop  (Read 6175 times)

ray

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trident loop
« on: January 23, 2006, 10:58:40 AM »
I saw a knot called a trident loop in a book but cannot find a bend based on this knot anywhere. Has anyone used/heard of this knot?

KnotNow!

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Re: trident loop
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2006, 12:51:28 PM »
Hi Ray,  Tie it up and cut the loop, now you have the bend.  Work on a way to form the bend you now have in hand in a reasonable manner.  Not all loops make good bends.  Can you tell me what book you saw the trident loop in?  Consider all the fine bends in practice and think if this one is in any way an improvement?  "Trident Loop" is not in ABOK.  What book were you looking at?
ROY S. CHAPMAN, IGKT-PAB BOARD.

ray

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Re: trident loop
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2006, 06:15:00 PM »
I have worked out how to make the bend with two ends allready, wondered if anyone else had done it.
The book is "The Book of knots" by Geoffrey Budworth and Jason Dalton. The Ivy Press isbn 190393852x.
It describes the trident loop as an alternative climbers tie in knot (hence my interest, as a climber) devised by Robert Wolfe MD of Chicago Illinois. I saw its similarity to the alpine butterfly and spent some time fiddling between differnent methods of tying that as a loop and as a bend.

ray

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Re: trident loop
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2006, 06:28:29 PM »
forgot to mention that the reason it seemed a good knot was that apparently it is very secure, in shock loading tests it yielded not a millimetre according to this book, yet it is reasonably easy to untie after loading.

roo

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Re: trident loop
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2006, 06:47:16 PM »
Quote
I saw a knot called a trident loop in a book but cannot find a bend based on this knot anywhere. Has anyone used/heard of this knot?


Ray,

I remember trying a Trident, or maybe a Tricorn loop a while ago, and my impressions of it were not favorable.  However, it was a long time ago, so I cannot remember exactly what the problem was.

I'll try to look into it and get back to you.  Are you pretty sure the knot you're interested in is a Trident versus a Tricorn?

Does this look familiar?:
http://library.wustl.edu/~manynote/trident.gif

(I'm not sure what numbers 1, 2, & 3 in the diagram are for  :-/ )
« Last Edit: January 23, 2006, 07:33:04 PM by roo »
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: trident loop
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2006, 09:05:38 PM »
Quote
I have worked out how to make the bend with two ends allready, wondered if anyone else had done it.
I define the bend associated with the loopknot (or vice versa) as loading of the
leg of the loop's eye that leading to the end; or, with eye cut, that is then of the
newly made 2nd piece of rope.  Note that the Butterfly loopknot & bend do NOT
have this relation!  (So, maybe we should adopt Brion Toss's name "Straight" bend
for it, leaving "Butterfly bend" to attach to the *proper* knot--though it will be
interpreted too immediately otherwise.)

Quote
The book is "The Book of knots" by Geoffrey Budworth and Jason Dalton.
A book with ratings of strength, security, ease of tying, & ease of untying, but
w/o an explanation of how these ratings came to be (and some dubious ratings
in various cases)!?

Quote
It describes the trident loop as an alternative climbers tie in knot (hence my interest, as a climber) devised by Robert Wolfe MD of Chicago Illinois. I saw its similarity to the alpine butterfly and spent some time fiddling between differnent methods of tying that as a loop and as a bend.
Did you also see that the tying indicated by image #3 conflicts with the tied
knot shown in #5?  --the end is passed through its bight in opposite ways (not
that this matters so much).

The design goals for this loopknot are security & ease of untying.  Frankly,
it doesn't impress me as very satisfactorily meeting these goals.  I'm also
curious as to what testing was done to justify the published assertions about
strength & security.  (In any case, slippage isn't much concern w/the noted
competing loopknot, the Fig.8.)

If you're looking for alternatives to the Fig.8 for tying in, you should consider
the Bowline knots.  Finishing the regular Bwl with what I call a "Doubly Tucked
Half-hitch" is a fine solution.   Make a Half-hitch around BOTH legs of the eye with
the end (after completing the Bwl), by going around away from the SPart's leg
and tucking the end (here comes the "doubly" part) under itself (which makes
it a Half-hitch) AND out through that side of the SPart's fundamental loop
(aka the "gooseneck").  This hitch will bring the SPart's leg up snug to the knot
and so bind the SPart adequately to stem untensioned loosening (as well as
preventing spilling on ring-loading).  And specifically seeking a knot that meets
the above goal, I designed the loops on Dan Britton's Contributions page:
(Locktight I & II, Lehman8).
cf www.iland.net/~jbritton/KnotPhotoContributions.html
Updated Link > www.pssurvival.com/PS/Knots/Knot_Knowledge_Photo_Illustrations_2004.pdf
The Locktight II was made for rather stiff rope, and L.I seems fine if the rope's
supple.  Unlike the Trident or Fig.8 or Lehman8 or most other loopknots, the
Bowline & Locktights can be formed after sizing the eye of the knot (say, after
taking the rope around a tree, or through your harness).

As for the Tricorn Loop, this is also presented by Geoffrey Budworth in one or more
of his books.  He credits himself with discovering it, though he sh/could have  found
it as Ashley's #1029.  I, too, "invented" it, though with the end going the other
way around the "belly" of the Overhand base; this I think makes more secure
in tension, but vulnerable to spilling on ring-loading (unless further tucking the
end or stoppering it).  It has nice qualities of being secure-when-slack in many
cordage, and being able to be forcibly untied by pulling the end and end-side of
eye apart, which will prise out material from the SPart into the knot!

Cheers,
--dl*
====
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 08:35:14 PM by SS369 »

roo

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Re: trident loop
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2006, 11:37:10 PM »
Quote
I saw a knot called a trident loop in a book but cannot find a bend based on this knot anywhere. Has anyone used/heard of this knot?

Ok, I found some info.  The Trident Loop is based on ABOK #1452 (in the Ashley Book of Knots), sometimes called the Ashley Bend.

I can see where some confusion might come in, since in one publication a half-hitch is inexplicably added to the loop as if were an essential part of the knot.  

From the method I saw, the loop seemed very easy to mistie, and hard to remember.   Then again, I've seen simple knots presented with very awkward instructions for tying.

Just for fun, I did load the Trident Loop hard and it became difficult to untie.  

You might want to look at the Zeppelin Loop for an alternative.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 10:04:54 PM by roo »
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