Author Topic: Subtle Buntline Hitch  (Read 10733 times)

SaltyCracker

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Subtle Buntline Hitch
« on: December 31, 2010, 04:03:08 AM »
The Buntline Hitch is mentioned in several places on this IGKT forum in its slipped form (Slipped Buntline Hitch) or as a hitch that is chinched up around a spar or pole. The Buntline Hitch has the peculiar property of forming a loop that adjusts easily but resists widening. ABoK #191 (Corned Beef & Salt Pork Knot) alludes to this property. Try forming a loop with a Buntline then gripping and pulling opposite legs of the loop to widen it. It makes a fairly compact knot for forming an adjustable loop.

With ABoK #191 a half hitch is used as assurance once the final tightening is complete to form the completed Corned Beef & Salt Pork Knot but its foundation is the Buntline's gain & hold property. Here are a few uses for the Buntline Hitch and, with half hitch added, the Corned Beef & Salt Pork Knot that are seldom discussed:

1) It is an option to the Constrictor Knot when tying tightly around a bundle when there's no solid surface to provide a pressure point to pinch and hold as needed with the constrictor knot.
2) It provides an effective alternative to the Reef (Square) knot for tightly tying a package or bundle together, especially if you don't have someone to hold their finger on the first half knot when tying a reef knot.
3) When the line being used is too short to grip both working ends and pull tight using other knots, the Buntline requires only gripping the knot and pulling on one working end to chinch it up.

Took me a while to recognize the nature of the simple Buntline Hitch. Look forward to others' thoughts on this knot.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2010, 04:07:20 AM by SaltyCracker »

roo

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Re: Subtle Buntline Hitch
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2010, 06:51:30 PM »
If you wish to add a troll to your ignore list, click "Profile" then "Buddies/Ignore List".


knot4u

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Re: Subtle Buntline Hitch
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2010, 09:57:00 PM »
If I have enough rope to make two wraps around the object, then I would likely go with a Gleipnir here.  I like a two-turn Gleipnir finished with a slip.  Note that a Gleipnir may also be finished a half hitch (like in the Corned Beef) in order to lock the Gleipnir.

I'll keep in mind the Corned Beef (ABOK #191) as a secondary option.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2010, 10:05:46 PM by knot4u »

knot4u

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Re: Subtle Buntline Hitch
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2011, 11:18:55 PM »
For binding, I've been playing around with Two Half Hitches (or a Buntline) plus a Half Hitch lock (ending similar to Corned Beef ending).  I like it!

Upside:
-Non-jamming
-No new knot to remember, except Half Hitch Lock at end
-Does not need to be flush tight against object
-Effective alternative to Square
-Unlike Square, does not need finger gymnastics to tighten
Downside:
-Relatively bulky

Is my description clear?  I may need pics.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 10:02:30 PM by knot4u »

SaltyCracker

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Re: Subtle Buntline Hitch
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2011, 02:54:22 AM »
There are several varieties of butcher/packer's knots that start with nooses based on figure eight, overhand, double overhand, granny (alias two half hitches when inverted), etc. The slick thing about the buntline is its superiority in adjusting then holding loop size. With butchers and packers, there's little intention of untying; so, no need for the slipped buntline for them.

What is great about this forum is that its contributors look for ways to transfer knots to uses other than those "intended" or combine features, like the slipped buntline, with classic versions of working knots to expand their functionality.

Another butcher/packer's knot, #192, shown by Ashley uses an inverted tautline hitch. It's even bulkier but holds loop size better than the buntline.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 01:01:17 AM by SaltyCracker »

knot4u

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Re: Subtle Buntline Hitch
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2011, 03:31:12 AM »
I usually have a need to untie.  Try this: tie a Corned Beef, but slip the Buntline portion.  (Note that's different than the knot I described above.)  Tell me what you think.  It's properties are like the Corned Beef, but you can untie it with a yank of the working end.

SaltyCracker

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Re: Subtle Buntline Hitch
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2011, 01:16:54 PM »
That works really well. The slipped buntline doesn't seem to affect its adjust and hold nature. And, with the locking half hitch of the standing part thrown over the loop of the slipped buntline, a pull on the buntline's working end collapses the whole knot.

Sweeney

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Re: Subtle Buntline Hitch
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2011, 06:08:10 PM »
I agree - a bit bulky (though not noticeable in string), it works very well and is easy to undo as well as being less likely to slip as it's tightened. It shows that there's at least as much value in finding applications for well known knots as in the quest for new ones.

Barry


knot4u

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Re: Subtle Buntline Hitch
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2011, 09:40:51 PM »
In Reply #3 above, I was NOT describing a variation of the Corned Beef.
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2649.msg15810#msg15810

I was talking about the typical Two Half Hitches (or Buntline) plus a Half Hitch lock.  So far, I'm not seeing the need for the extra complexity of the Corned Beef.  According to my testing, a simpler Two Half Hitches (or Buntline) plus a Half Hitch lock has about the same advantages as a Corned Beef, but with less complexity.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 12:15:49 AM by knot4u »

SaltyCracker

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Re: Subtle Buntline Hitch
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2011, 12:15:58 AM »
knot4u,
Boy do I feel dumb... I've been tying it with just the buntline around the object (as you describe) & locking half hitch since I (thought that I had) started tying it. It started with discovering (for myself anyway) the adjust and hold property of the buntline hitch and then looking in ABoK for a description of this property. Being familiar with the way the square and granny (two half hitches) knot methods are used for tying a butcher's knot, I jumped to conclusions on Ashley's description of the Corned Beef. Your comment caused me to go back and take another read & look at ABoK #191. I didn't catch his "tied around its own bight" statement and didn't look closely at his drawing.

I completely agree with you about using just a buntline. The buntline around the object, not its own bight, with half hitch lock really comes through for me when adjusting the steering line harness on my peddle kayak's rudder. The installed kevlar lines are not quite long enough to get a good grip so a buntline, locked with a half hitch, works great.

In my experience, two half hitches (granny knot version of butcher's knot) don't have the same adjust & hold property. That method of tying a butcher's knot is the same as ABoK #186. That is one of the knots that led me astray with the Corned Beef.

I'm surprised that Ashley didn't go with the buntline tied around the object rather than its own bight??? I've never tied it the way he describes. (So I've never actually tied the Corned Beef.)

And I've been teaching what I've called a packers' knot with just the buntline tied around the object and adding a locking half hitch for security. Part of the teaching has included a warning about the dangerous nature of the buntline. That danger, like with any loop or noose is especially insideous with the buntline. Since the loop can't be widened quickly by pulling on both legs of the loop, it shouldn't be tighten around anything such that it could cause harm.

Glad I didn't bet someone that I knew how to tie the Corn Beef Knot! Thanks for straightening me out!
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 12:53:18 AM by SaltyCracker »

knot4u

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Re: Subtle Buntline Hitch
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2011, 12:21:58 AM »
No worries, I too was trying the Corned Beef wrongly, but then I wondered why Ashley gave it that weird name.  This thread made me revisit this knot and discover that I had been tying the Corned Beef wrongly!
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 12:24:42 AM by knot4u »

SaltyCracker

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Re: Subtle Buntline Hitch
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2011, 12:58:18 AM »
Maybe now the properties touted in the initial post on the subject make more sense?

"1) It is an option to the Constrictor Knot when tying tightly around a bundle when there's no solid surface to provide a pressure point to pinch and hold as needed with the constrictor knot.
2) It provides an effective alternative to the Reef (Square) knot for tightly tying a package or bundle together, especially if you don't have someone to hold their finger on the first half knot when tying a reef knot.
3) When the line being used is too short to grip both working ends and pull tight using other knots, the Buntline requires only gripping the knot and pulling on one working end to chinch it up."

Based on input from this thread, a post by me in the Ten Most Useful Knots thread was updated.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 01:41:07 AM by SaltyCracker »

knot4u

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Re: Subtle Buntline Hitch
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2011, 08:00:43 PM »
Thank you for starting this thread!  It has caused me to solved one a long-standing problem:  Binding an object where the knot is not touching (or barely touching) the object.  I've been experimenting with various knots for the last few days.  My favorite knot combination to address this problem is now Two Half Hitches Slipped plus a Half Hitch Lock.

I know that's a boring answer, but I'm quite satisfied with it.  As I'm cinching the line tight, the Two Half Hitches get tighter around the standing end.  To be clear, Two Half Hitches may be mathematically equivalent to a Granny, but the dressing of the Two Half Hitches is NOTHING like a typical Granny diagram.  Instead, for the Two Half Hitches, the standing line passes straight through the knot.  Two Half Hitches does not behave like a dressed Granny.

For the stated problem, that combination beat out other knots.  I like the Buntline combination if I only have one hand to tighten OR if the knot is flush against the object.  The tightness of a Buntline occurs when it's touching the object and the Buntline has nothing else to do but get tighter.  There is the Gleipnir, but sometimes two wraps around the object is not feasible.  Plus, Two Half Hitches is easier to tie than a Gleipnir.  A Square has proven to be far less than ideal for the stated problem.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 11:23:04 PM by knot4u »

Mike

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Re: Subtle Buntline Hitch
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2011, 02:29:18 AM »
This thread is worthless without pictures..... ;) ;D

SaltyCracker

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Re: Subtle Buntline Hitch
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2011, 04:33:28 AM »
Mike,
Might I respectfully suggest that you try something like, "Could you put some photos up so we can better understand?"
It just takes a little old fashioned consideration and politeness to bring this forum back to what I perceive as its original intent of respectful knowledge sharing. Yes, I'll post some photos but my agenda is full for the next couple of days so please be patient.