Author Topic: Banned from the Forum, to our relief ! :)  (Read 8850 times)

xarax

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Banned from the Forum, to our relief ! :)
« on: December 23, 2010, 07:09:09 PM »
0
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 12:41:18 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

DerekSmith

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Re: Banned from the Forum, to our relief ! :)
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2010, 09:02:52 PM »
Well Spoken Xarax.

Although this debacle went on too long and some of us said things that they will perhaps in the future be a little ashamed of, most of us simply ignored the literary emotion and waited for the dust to settle and the bruises to fade.

Inkanyezi has now made all his content CCA so clearly his initial emotional request to have his image deleted from Xarax's post has passed.

The formal intervention then of the Webmistress deleting content from a post was then at the heart of this storm when a polite request to remove it would have been both appropriate and adequate.  Those imbued with power to FORCE a situation must remember that there are other methods available to them that will calm rather than fire a sensitive situation.

Now I read "The opinion of an administrative officer was expressed that you should be given a temporary ban, and a stern warning"  and presumably that opinion has been acted upon via the vehicle of the PM and the temporary ban.

The situation had gone quiet - why did you have to go stir it up again...?

When will you folks learn that when we vote for you to do things for us, we do not at the same time give our Forum or our Guild to you, we hand you power to run the thing FOR US - to meet OUR satisfaction - not your own.

Had you been asked by several posters to suspend Xarax, and a simple warning request been ignored by him, then fine - but "an administrative officer" has no weight here at all unless it is what the members want, and I for one do not want to be DICTATED to by those we empower to operate the Guild and the Forum for us.

As a Guild member and a Forum poster I have extreme respect for the work the Officers and Webmistress do for us, but please do not confuse this thanks and respect as a license to do with the Guild and the Forum as you choose.

Here is the Carrot

 --  PLEASE reconsider you action; do not implement your temporary ban, and withdraw your "Stern Warning".

You do not need to create an issue here - the storm is over and if you leave things alone will soon be forgotten. </Carrot>

Derek

SS369

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Re: Banned from the Forum, to our relief ! :)
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2010, 11:35:46 PM »
I am not in favor of a ban.
I think lessons were learned, albeit eyes got a bit crossed, apologies sent forth in some direction(s) and the matter should be defused (hopefully).

I want educated members and not as educated members to post freely here so we may all learn from their unique perspectives. You just never know when something truly new or unique will pass before us.
We do well to learn from everyone.
Do our best to go on, ignore the petty stuff and maintain a quality of conversing that we're proud of.

Lift the ban is my vote.

Scott


Dan_Lehman

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Re: Banned from the Forum, to our relief ! :)
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2010, 04:55:22 AM »
Well Spoken Xarax.

With all due respect, I suggest that you better reflect on both the actual
issue and the "speaking" you claim is so well done here.  Yes, this debacle
went on too long and way beyond the pale of civility and reasonable
behavior; if anything, the action is overdue, which we may understand
comes from exactly a reluctance to be heavy handed that is here decried.

Quote
The formal intervention then of the Webmistress deleting content from a post
was then at the heart of this storm when a polite request to remove it would have been
both appropriate and adequate.

Omitting that, in the particular case, the very post itself was an
issue beyond the "theft" of any image :  it was inflammatory
about the knot AND it's poster; it was purported to be a warning
of some dangerous knot whose dangers were imagined; it was
a warning unneeded (the context of the image was thread with
prior images that are clear & uncontroversial); it was a warning
out of place --not in the thread with the supposed dangerous image,
but in a separate thread (which well might be ignored by someone
supposedly harmed by that image in the other thread)--; and it was
shown to be false in denying that the image was as labeled.

Then, beyond all this, there was the repeated posting of the
most bizarre nature, invoking demons and excrement and so
on, ascribing scatological and other derogatory attributes to
those of a contrary opinion.  Do not pretend that this was just
some tit-for-tat exchange --it wasn't.

Quote
The situation had gone quiet - why did you have to go stir it up again...?

Because doing nothing --even compared with a slow reaction-- is a bad
precendent.  We are (fortunately) not well tested in such matters.  As Roo
had earlier opined, we do not have Rules of Behavior posted and sworn to;
and we have not needed them, for the most part, which is as one hopes.

Quote
When will you folks learn that when we vote for you to do things for us, we do not at the same time give our Forum or our Guild to you, we hand you power to run the thing FOR US - to meet OUR satisfaction - not your own.

When we do WHAT?!   "our Forum"?   "to meet OUR satisfaction"?!
--would this implied us be forum members or IGKT members, or the
small intersection of the two sets?

Quote
Here is the Carrot
 --  PLEASE reconsider you action; do not implement your temporary ban, and withdraw your "Stern Warning".
You do not need to create an issue here - the storm is over and if you leave things alone will soon be forgotten. </Carrot>
Derek

There is quite some vitamin deficiency in your offered vegetable.

"The storm is over,"
and yet already there is now a "lioness" to add to the other fabled characters
we were presented with not all so long ago --which maybe linger on the tip of
someone's fingers ready to reappear?

> ... I do not hope anymore that my case will be understood and fairly judged...

And the troubling issue, still couched in terms that defy reason, is
yet raised again --as though a warning was denied (even unfounded
and out of place, it was not --but went well beyond warning).  That
sure begs the question of how this entire issue about an image has
been understood; and there should be no question at this stage!
Just as we should not have doubts about how to tell time.


--dl*
====

skyout

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Re: Banned from the Forum, to our relief ! :)
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2010, 05:44:06 AM »
I think the ban is way overdue. It was like wathing a bad instant replay, the same thing over and over and over, but when the violence indicator in the way of a veiled threat of harm with the comments of guns and killing people came into play, it should have been stopped right then and there. JMO

knot4u

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Re: Banned from the Forum, to our relief ! :)
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2010, 06:40:55 PM »
It's just an Internet forum.  Keep things in perspective.

Merry Christmas  :)

admin

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Re: Banned from the Forum, to our relief ! :)
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2010, 04:10:34 PM »
Some small points of clarification:

Xarax was not contacted by myself but by the Web Administrator (a duly appointed Guild official) with whom he had been exchanging PMS  and emails for some time.

Xarax was not banned from the forum. If he had been, he would not have been able to post. He was told that he had breached the forum's Registration Agreement in at least 3 places and that any future breaches might result in some form of ban.

DerekSmith

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Re: Banned from the Forum, to our relief ! :)
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2010, 11:59:52 PM »
Some small points of clarification:

Xarax was not contacted by myself but by the Web Administrator (a duly appointed Guild official) with whom he had been exchanging PMS  and emails for some time.

Xarax was not banned from the forum. If he had been, he would not have been able to post. He was told that he had breached the forum's Registration Agreement in at least 3 places and that any future breaches might result in some form of ban.

Thank you for the sanity, and especially your patience.

Derek

knot4u

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Re: Banned from the Forum, to our relief ! :)
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2011, 02:11:47 AM »
EDIT:  Feedback thread is here: http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2659.0

Moderators, I recommend you make posts un-editable after awhile (e.g., 6 hours).

It appears that somebody went back in time and deleted a multitude of posts.  Now, many other reply posts don't make much sense.  Here's one of many examples:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1889.msg14618#msg14618
To what am I replying there?  I wish I knew.  I do know I spent a fair amount of time on that post.  The unrestricted editing makes me want to spend little time thinking through my posts.  Yes, there's the quote function, but many times I'm responding to several different posts at once.

I'll bet the original post in this thread will change.  So, here it is for preservation purposes:

Quote
   Last words:
   1. A picture of a knot, with the label "asymmetric Zeppelin", was posted at this forum, at December 11, 2010, 12:21:23 PM. (1) The same picture, with the same label, is still there now, after 12 days.
   2. As soon as I saw this picture, I judged it as a dangerous picture/label combination. I believed this was true then, and I believe this is true now, too. This was, and still is, my personal opinion on this matter, of course. (6)
   3. I immediately posted a new thread, under the title "This is NOT a Zeppelin bend", at December 11, 2010, 07:35:38 PM. (2), where I re-posted the original picture with a new label : "NOT-a Zeppelin bend". This picture is shown at (6) (attached picture).
   4. The author of the dangerous knot/label combination replied, in the same thread, at December 11, 2010, 07:47:23 PM, Last Edited at : December 11, 2010, 08:02:18 PM, (3), with the following exact wording :  

   "That picture is mine and you have stolen it" (sic)

   5. After THAT accusation against me as a THIEF, a series of mutually offensive posts between us was published.
   6. I have regretted my own participation in this series, I have deleted all my relevant posts, and I have apologized for it directly to my opponent. However, nothing like this happened from his side, ever.
     7. The Webmistress has posted to me a PM , at December 22, 2010, 12:00:11 AM , (4), informing me, essentially, that I am banned from the Forum .

   She said that I were posting personal insults... what is true, of course, but without mentioning the previous personal insults against me ! ( Many of those personal insults are still posted, for everybody to read and decide by himself ).
   She hinted that I was "promoting my personality" (sic) !!! ( :) :) :))
   She said that I had cast "the first stone" . She does not think, evidently, that I should have considered the "THIEF" accusation, ( among other things that I wish not repeat here ), as a stone !!! For her, such an insult should have been considered as acceptable...or a small peeble, perhaps ? (5) :)
   I give some examples of this PM here, with some sentences of the ban statement, with the exact wording :  

  we do draw a line as to the kinds of personal insults you were posting (sic)
  The opinion of an administrative officer was expressed that you should be given a temporary ban, and a stern warning (sic).
  whenever you post again for a very long time (sic)
  The forum exists to promote knotting, not personalities. (sic)
  the one who cast the first stone is the one who bears responsibility, and therefore also bears the brunt of reproach (sic)

   So, I am obliged to respect this ban, and, also, I do not hope anymore that my case will be understood or fairly judged in this forum.
   I will have given the same warning, in any such a dangerous picture, whenever had I thought it was dangerous, as I did then, and I still do, now.
   It seems that the participants of this forum, and the Webmistress, think otherwise. I am not responsible for their decisions, and any possible outcome.
   I will be glad to e-mail any picture of the knots I have published in this forum the last one and a half year. I have done everything I have done in good faith and out of good intentions. I apologize to anybody that felt offended by my wording, which was a self defence against the unfair treatment I had on this case. The "lioness", the Webmistress, can, of course, delete this post as well. I do not have any doubts at all that she had the best intentions with her intervention, regardless the unfortunate and unfair outcome.

May the knots be with you !  :)

1) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2159.msg15415#msg15415
2) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2199.0
3) The original reply is deleted for unknown reasons. I have filled all the deleted posts, as well as this one, and I can e-mail them to anybody interested.
4) PM from the Webmistress to me. I can e-mail it to anybody interested, if the Webmitress gives me her permission to do this, of course.
5) "A pebble is a clast of rock with a particle size of 4 to 64 millimetres based on the Krumbein phi scale of sedimentology."  :)
6) The old picture / new label combination, as I have posted it. See attached picture.

« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 08:53:55 PM by knot4u »

KnotMe

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Re: Banned from the Forum, to our relief ! :)
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2011, 02:13:11 AM »
I recommend to the moderators to make posts un-editable after awhile (maybe 24 hours).  It appears that somebody went back in time and deleted a multitude of posts.
Please don't do that... or if you feel that you must freeze changes after some time period, make it a significant amount of time, like a month.

Give people the chance to think better of something they may have said.  Allow for rashness, second thoughts and fact checking.

knot4u

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Re: Banned from the Forum, to our relief ! :)
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2011, 02:19:31 AM »
I recommend to the moderators to make posts un-editable after awhile (maybe 24 hours).  It appears that somebody went back in time and deleted a multitude of posts.
Please don't do that... or if you feel that you must freeze changes after some time period, make it a significant amount of time, like a month.

Give people the chance to think better of something they may have said.  Allow for rashness, second thoughts and fact checking.

I don't think you're understanding.  I'm estimating that hundreds of posts have been deleted.  That's far more damaging than locking posts and having a post there that could have been said better.  I'd say 6 hours is plenty of time to say the correct thing.  Plus, people after your post are responding to what you've said, and the thread goes a particular direction.  If someone goes back 6 months later and deletes/edits, then that's like traveling back in time and changing a fact of history to which all current events relate.

roo

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Re: Banned from the Forum, to our relief ! :)
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2011, 02:25:35 AM »
I don't think you're understanding.  I'm estimating that hundreds of posts have been deleted.  That's far more damaging than locking posts and having a post there that could have been said better.  I'd say 6 hours is plenty of time to say the correct thing.  Plus, people after your post are responding to what you've said, and the thread goes a particular direction.  If someone goes back 6 months later and deletes/edits, then that's like traveling back in time and changing a fact of history to which all current events relate.

This belongs in a separate thread in the feedback forum.  I wouldn't like the idea, anyway.  It's nice to be able to fix dead links months or years later.
If you wish to add a troll to your ignore list, click "Profile" then "Buddies/Ignore List".


knot4u

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Re: Banned from the Forum, to our relief ! :)
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2011, 02:31:12 AM »
I don't think you're understanding.  I'm estimating that hundreds of posts have been deleted.  That's far more damaging than locking posts and having a post there that could have been said better.  I'd say 6 hours is plenty of time to say the correct thing.  Plus, people after your post are responding to what you've said, and the thread goes a particular direction.  If someone goes back 6 months later and deletes/edits, then that's like traveling back in time and changing a fact of history to which all current events relate.

This belongs in a separate thread in the feedback forum.  I wouldn't like the idea, anyway.  It's nice to be able to fix dead links months or years later.

Again, you're talking about an issue that is far less damaging than having someone go back and delete hundreds of posts.  I've explained above.  Some threads that I recently revisited make no sense anymore.  If I wanted to be an ass, I could go back right now and delete (or substantially change) all my original posts.  It would make the rest of the threads incoherent, and some of those threads are good and long.  Having the ability to delete an original post after several months/years, that's just unfair to everybody that spent their time replying.

With my proposal of locking posts after awhile (e.g., 6 hours), you can correct something by using a later post.  Also, if you say something that's incorrect, then people like Dan are likely to call you on it.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 03:29:47 AM by knot4u »

dewildeman

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Re: Banned from the Forum, to our relief ! :)
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2011, 04:55:26 AM »
I agree with Carol that 6 hours is way too short a time.  Sometimes you need to sleep on something and I'm sure we've all said something we wish we could take back.  And on those rare occassions when a member has posted something in error it would be nice to be able to make a correction.

knot4u

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Re: Banned from the Forum, to our relief ! :)
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2011, 07:09:19 AM »
I'm almost certain folks here aren't realizing that hundreds of posts have been deleted.  That's bad for the forum overall.  If the feature isn't fixed, then there should be some sort of forewarning that a poster can delete/edit any of their posts at any time at their whim.  That way we can treat every post in this forum like it may change at some future date, or we can decide earlier not to participate.