Author Topic: new stopper knot ???  (Read 9307 times)

scott

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new stopper knot ???
« on: January 05, 2006, 04:20:36 PM »
   is this a named knot?start with line running from rt. to
left.grasp line with left hand about 6 inches from end,wrap standing end around left thumb 3 or 4 times,
like you would the Steve Dover knot,now take the end in your left hand and wrap it around to the right side and tuck it into and through all the wraps and out the other end.dress and set.I'm new at this knot thing and I dont have ant books to help me name this knot.but I get to name it first !

roo

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Re: new stopper knot ???
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2006, 09:21:15 PM »
To make things clear, could you draw a picture of what you're describing?
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knudeNoggin

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Re: new stopper knot ???
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2006, 06:58:54 PM »
Quote
  is this a named knot?start with line running from rt. to
left.grasp line with left hand about 6 inches from end,wrap standing end around left thumb 3 or 4 times,
like you would the Steve Dover knot,now take the end in your left hand and wrap it around to the right side and tuck it into and through all the wraps and out the other end.dress and set.I'm new at this knot thing and I dont have ant books to help me name this knot.but I get to name it first !
Words can work but you need good words.
"running from rt. to left." means the (bitter) end is on the left, SPart rightwards?

"wrap standing end around left thumb"
Is the wrapping to be of the (indefinitely long--maybe attached to a pole, say) SPart,
and around both thumb AND END, wrapping LEFTwards.

"Steve Dover" = "Stevedore"
In the Stevedore stopper, the SPart u-turns and now as end wraps around itself.
Above, is the SPart to wrap back around thumb and end similarly?  (Though
leaving the SPart ultimately still leading rightwards, after final turn/wrap.)

"now take the end in your left hand"
Well, the end has always been in my left hand, just as I did the wrapping with
the SPart, no?

"around the right side" = "around the SPart (indefinitely long end)" ?

"dress & set":  Ha!  There are questions needing clearing up before we can guess
what it is that we might care to dress.  This is yet unsettled.

*knudeNoggin*

KnotNow!

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Re: new stopper knot ???
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2006, 01:47:57 AM »
Hi Steve,
 I'm still hoping for a sketch or photo.  I'll admit to being completly lost in the verbal description.  I hope you come back to us with a little more help.
ROY S. CHAPMAN, IGKT-PAB BOARD.

scott

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Re: new stopper knot ???
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2006, 04:26:51 PM »
I wish I could send a drawing or pic.yes running rt.to lft ,I mean standing end to your right and bitter end to the left.wrap standing end over the bitter end or your thumb.4 wraps.now bring the bitter end over to the right side of the knot and run it through the wraps.it takes a little work to get it dressed but you end up with a side ways looking steve dore or double overhand (tripple overhand?)I hope this helps.  Knot head

Dan_Lehman

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Re: new stopper knot ???
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2006, 05:58:32 AM »
Quote
...  yes running rt.to lft ,I mean standing end to your right and bitter end to the left.wrap standing end over the bitter end or your thumb.4 wraps.now bring the bitter end over to the right side of the knot and run it through the wraps. ...

With this further detail, I come up with something (varied by number of wraps)
one might call an Anchor Bend stopper!?  I.e., the hitch tied around air.
Seems a quick way to secure a lump of rope, but not so good at being snug in that
drawing out inevitable looseness of the wraps is tedious.  One can shift the SPart
from being precisely where it is in the Anchor H. so that it's more *centered* among
the wraps.
Looks like it (what I describe, anyway) could be strong, but then there's this issue
of escaping material under load as it sort of tries to unwrap itself.
Hmmmm, more play time needed ...  ::)

--dl*
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SKellyog

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Re: new stopper knot ???
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2006, 07:54:56 AM »
It would be appreciated if the moderator could offer a rule here or other... Before a request of this sort : a picture or drawing should be posted, lest the conclusion point in turn to the same ambiguous description contained in the original description/question.    

roo

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Re: new stopper knot ???
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2006, 09:20:44 AM »
Quote
I wish I could send a drawing or pic.


Surely you have access to at least a rudimentary draw program.  You can e-mail a sketch to me and I could post it for you.  My address is on the Notable Knot Index website.

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Willeke

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Re: new stopper knot ???
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2006, 07:46:51 PM »
I do not think we need a drawing with every knot.
And for many people it is hard or even impossible to post a picture with the post.

But this knot does need a little more than scott can tell us.

Scott,
can you draw a line drawing with a marker or pen.
Or can you get someone to take photos while you tie the knot.
If you have no way to make it a digital picture, we can help you to get it on the net, even if it needs using mail and someones scanner.
Maybe you can also try to descibe it as if a blind person, who never tied a knot in his live, has to tie it from what you say.

Willeke
"Never underestimate what a simple person can do with clever tools,
nor what a clever person can do with simple tools." - Ian Fieggen

Writer of A booklet on lanyards, available from IGKT supplies.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: new stopper knot ???
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2006, 10:23:21 PM »
Quote
I do not think we need a drawing with every knot.
And for many people it is hard or even impossible to post a picture with the post.

But this knot does need a little more than scott can tell us.

I concur in the first but not concluding sentiment.  Scott with another visit
can simply confirm my (correction to my earlier) description/analysis.

I worry that language skills become a lost art in the face of some reliance on graphics!
Words are not that useless, esp. when coupled with some known references.
Scott can confirm my description or amend it as needed, as he did for the previous
point-by-point questions.

But I see one correction right off:  it's not quite
  • an Anchor Hitch (around air)
    that one makes, in which the end flows from the last wrap to go around the SPart
    and then through the wraps' *tunnel*, but in Scott's case the end goes through
    the tunnel and then up around past the SPart and back through the tunnel again.
    By reorientation, though, it can be seen to be in fact a multiple Overhand (like the
    Quipu form where one end wraps the other and a single outer ("belly") wrap vs.
    balanced wrapping of the Grapevine/Strangle/Scaffold-knot forms.
    And the finished knot resembles a closed fist (the wraps like curled fingers),
    the SPart extended like the arm.

    Scott's instructions are quite simple.  Let him clarify where needed.
    Hold the end of the rope (SPart running rightwards, end left.) w/left hand so that about
    6" (say) extend left beyond the hand.  With thumb extended along rope (SPartwards)
    now wrap the SPart around the thumb & itself (perhaps using thumbnail to help hold
    the u-turn of rope as SPart engages wrapping)--this part is like the formation of the
    Stevedore knot except one is making it with the SPart vice end (!)--;
    after the desired number (he says 4) of wraps, with SPart left to hand down
    (oh, I wrap w/right hand bringing rope towards me (over thumbnail) and then up
    and around behind thumb & up and around back down around ...),
    bring end around behind SPart (else you render last wrap useless) and feed it through
    the wraps as you withdraw your left thumb--replaced by end (moving leftwards).

  • And in relation to the Anchor Bend/Hitch (Fish.Bend), here's the method:
    tie the Anchor hitch with an extra two turns (around air);
    consider the turns numbered from SPart towards end as 1-2-3-4;
    move turn 3 over 4 (to opp.side, i.e.); 2 then over 4-3; 1 over 4-3-2.

    I will add that this knot is a tough one to present graphically--best done thus in
    an exploded form along with a drawn-up one.

    --dl*
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nautile

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scott

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Re: new stopper knot ???
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2006, 02:57:10 AM »
      I think Dan has got it figured out.it does look like a fist,standing part being the arm.If I can I will send a pic or drawing asap.And your idea of moving that last wrap over to the center sounds like a good idea.If tyed rite it shouls stay and not loosen up,but I havent tested it properly.alittle slow to dress and might get tough to undo after a load has been put on it.but I think you got it Dan.is there a name or simmeler knot?


            Scott

KnotNow!

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Re: new stopper knot ???
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2006, 09:14:42 AM »
Hi Scott and fellow knotters,
 I think it is as if I were in a pasture with an astronomer and a telescope and a star searcher.  "You see that star?"  No, which one?  "The little bright one next to the red/green one?" Nope, I can't see it.  Well look to the horizon and come up three finger widths and yada yadda yadda."
 Do you see that without a point of reference it all conversation becomes "yadda yadda"?
 "Hi, I just discovered a new star!"  That's nice.  Where is it?
  Do you see that without some frame of refference and some common terms there can be no hope of our seeing what you see?
  When looking at the stars just seeing "it" is enough but that understanding stars requires great study.
  When looking at knots simply "seeing" it is not enough.. there must be a reason for it to exist.   Stars exist.. just because..  but knots must exist  for a tangible "because".  We need this knot as it is superior to all that have come before.  Or equal to.  But not often because "I just thought of it.".  Be careful of your "new" knots.. and your new stars.
 But of course never stop searching for new knots... and new stars!!!! :D
« Last Edit: January 18, 2006, 08:44:31 PM by PABPRES »
ROY S. CHAPMAN, IGKT-PAB BOARD.

KnotNow!

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Re: new stopper knot ???
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2006, 09:00:50 PM »
Hi Scott,
 Rereading the posts this AM I sure hope you can post a drawing or photo or two.  Also I am puzzled where this stopper will fit in the progression of existing stoppers.  Start with an ovdrhand knot as the smallest and most primitive, next a figure 8 stopper for a larger diamater and more easily untied stopper, then the stevedore (aka longshoreman) stopper for hardly more bulk than the fig 8 but of long established utility, then the Oysterman Stopper (aka Ashley's stopper) which bulks more diameter than the previous 4 and finally Brion Toss's Sink Stopper.  Beyond that Ashley offers 49 or so terminal or stoppers.  Where would you suggest "Scotts Stopper" fits in the progression?  Since I am still unable to follow the description (my fault as much as anything... just a very visual person) can you lead me to one from ABOK or to a url that will help me see where it fits in the world?  I am very much looking forward to clarification.  
ROY S. CHAPMAN, IGKT-PAB BOARD.

SKellyog

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Re: new stopper knot ???
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2006, 08:45:42 AM »
I concur with Willeke (Moderator) to this extent: the forum should not discourage submissions for the reason that there is no picture or graphic.  But when identification is the concern, the final identification should be posted as a graphic or picture (tho not necessarily by the person asking the question)- the aim being to settle the original question so that IGKT is a good (?the best) place to come to settle an identification question.  

Being an old fan of Monty Python, and after reading the post of PABPRES with reference to stellar identification, it took some time to pick myself off the floor.  Thanks.

I don't want to disparage the power of the written word. It's being eroded ever so quickly.  Visual representation, unless our acuity fails us, is needed for the sake of agreement - this is the web after all.   I agree that written language is worth our investment.  Lets not discourage any questions. But the spoken word is even better - if somene has a knot and no access to a graphic or other, it might be helpful if we could offer a phone number so that the questioner could call, and then describe the knot in some detail to someone of us who has the ability to post a picture or graphic (not always easy).  
My apologies for this odd (ok, obnoxious) post.  My concern is that when the next 500 people want confirmation on whether this is a Blakes hitch, triple crown knot, Eskimo bowline or other, that there be some standard way to communicate agreement if the question is absent a pictorial representation.

Regarding the "new stopper knot," I still want to know : is it "new?"