Author Topic: ABOK #2952  (Read 5514 times)

deckhandiana

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ABOK #2952
« on: December 19, 2005, 08:37:26 PM »
 Am I being very stupid?  I cannot work this one out.  The second diagram bears no relation to the first.  (I'm using a 1st edition, it may have been altered in later ones).   ???

Any advice welcome - and Happy Christmas everyone!

JimC

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Re: ABOK #2952
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2005, 12:55:29 AM »
Am looking at #2952 Round Twist Sinnet based on Four-Strand roght?

Looks OK to me. First diagram shows starting arangement open for clarity. Second diagram shows start tightened up.

KnotNow!

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Re: ABOK #2952
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2005, 08:36:10 PM »
Hi,  I have all the editions and this is not one of the diagrams that has been edited.  You are correct, you can't get there from here.  Or so it seems to me.   ???  I am under a lot of pressure right now but I'll work with it a bit and post a jpg or somehow offer a solution.  The method is going to work out to be much like Round Sinnet by methods shown in #2999 and #3000.  However you will be working two ends and two sides of a bight in place of 4 ends.  This is one of the times when I somehow worked the #2952 without looking at it too closely... I just said "Wow, an continous sinnet from only one strand, cool" and did it by the already learned finger moves.  If you get it worked out before I do post your solutions so all can mark their books.  Merry Christmas to all.
ROY S. CHAPMAN, IGKT-PAB BOARD.

Willeke

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Re: ABOK #2952
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2005, 09:58:48 PM »
Now Roy told us that the diagramms have not been altered, I had a look.

It is indeed posible to make this braid with the instructions in ABOK.

But you will find it easier if you pre-twis the loop. Then the braid will fall into shape rather than twisting out of control.

I find it easier still to twist the string for as long as the braid needs to be, and splice back from there.

Here you wil find one way of doing that: http://knopen.ismijnhobby.nl/tables/twist_to_braid_table.html

There is one more way I know about. Again twist your string, wind one end around it and splice the last end in to make it a braid.
I have never found a way to make a drawing of that, but if you take a four strand round braid and pull out one end carefully, you can see how it should be done.

*Hint, take big braided strings to make your four strand braid so you can see what happens.*

Willeke
"Never underestimate what a simple person can do with clever tools,
nor what a clever person can do with simple tools." - Ian Fieggen

Writer of A booklet on lanyards, available from IGKT supplies.

deckhandiana

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Re: ABOK #2952
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2005, 10:18:37 PM »
Yes,  I see what you mean.  I've managed to work it now.

I still contend that, in the first drawing, the arrow shows that the lh end is drawn behind the loop, over the rh end, back through and behind the loop, and this is what makes it impossible to tie:  but in the second drawing the end has been left in front of the loop.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: ABOK #2952
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2005, 05:54:50 AM »
This is quite puzzling to me.

1) The 2nd/center diagram follows from the first EXCEPT that the LEFT
end should be crossing (last cross) UNDER the bight, if following the arrow.

2) The center diagram's action makes no sensible result w/me, pulling the right
side of the bight over the left end and out THROUGH ITSELF!?!
(This forms a crossing knot of sorts.)

3) And should the starting orientation differ between ends (one u-turns upwards,
the other (right side) downwards?) ?

Clearly the 1st & 2nd conflict in the mismatch between arrow & end.  But really the
center action leaves me really puzzled.

--dl*
====
« Last Edit: December 21, 2005, 05:55:21 AM by Dan_Lehman »

KnotNow!

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Re: ABOK #2952
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2005, 06:26:20 AM »
Hi, The drawings do not agree, as Dan points out and Deckhandiana agrees.  However it is possible to make the sinnet from ABOK, thank you Willeke.  What I found is that I get two different sinnets.. if a single strand could have two colors it would be easy to see.  The top left diagram worked (as by method in #2999) makes a different product than the center diagram if then worked as #2999.  The sinnet is the same by both ways but the crossings at the start are different... Perhaps putting a split key ring in would prove one to be better for that task.. but they are very similar.  But the important point is that you worked it out and are enjoying the knot.  And drawing it for a correction is difficult, since there are aparently two starts.  I think if you came to this task from already making #2999 you would have just made the "correction" in your mind and gone foreward.  I'll drop the thread now as you are already making the knot.  As Willeke points out the method she uses is so much easier to do, although I have not figured out how to do it in one strand (the night is young).  I am glad to have learned that via this post.  Since the original quest was for a single strand 4 strand sinnet and not two strand middled to make 4;.. why not play with Willeke's post and see if you can make it in a single strand by twisting and splicing?  Post if you have sucess!  I am confident you will... but my day has been long and at this moment I may cut the slipped reef knots which hold my boots on as I am limited in imagination by fatigue and can not see a way to untie them ??? :o.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2005, 06:36:15 AM by PABPRES »
ROY S. CHAPMAN, IGKT-PAB BOARD.

squarerigger

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Re: ABOK #2952
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2005, 08:25:54 AM »
A puzzle indeed!  I think you are all on the right track, with Willeke right on it.  What does need to be considered Deckhandiana is to ignore the lh end being on top or below the loop - it really doesn't matter, because the next move with the rh end (loop's right leg)will rearrange it anyway.  Willeke, if you arrange the loops as shown in ABOK you will need to twist the lowest loop (pre-twist it) to the left.  Turn the loop over as many times as you think you are going to make passes from l to r and back again.  Alternately, if you reverse the ends (lh end inside loop and rh end outside) at the start (is this what Roy said was the two starts?) you will need to pre-twist the loop to the right instead, I think.  Dan, your point #2 is well taken, except that when you pull that side of the loop around the center twisted structure, you pull the whole loop over the lh end, so that the lh and rh legs of the loop now sit above the lh end and below the rh end respectively, thus changing the orientation of ends with which you started (now becomes lh end inside loop and rh end outside loop).  On balance, it looks easy to do, if you remember to think of this as having four strands, (two of which are legs of the loop) and braid the sinnet accordingly with 2999 (or 3000, if you can get two colored lines heat-spliced together!).  BTW Roy, the difference between 2999 & 3000 that I get when making 2952 is only as a result of pounding or molding the sinnet into the cross-sectional shape I want (round or square).  Thanks Deckhandiana for a most interesting puzzle.

...and to all a good night!

Lindsey

Brian_Grimley

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Re: ABOK #2952
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2005, 06:42:24 PM »
If I take a two coloured line, say blue from the midpoint to the left and white from the midpoint to the right and arrange it as show in ABOK 2952, I get a checked design like ABOK 3000 (following the directions shown in ABOK 2952).

I get a spiral design like ABOK 2999 if I make a different start. I just take a turn over the white end with the blue end, leading the blue end over its own standing part and towards the right (below the white "loop part"). Then, following the directions of ABOK 2952, I get a spiral design like ABOK 2999.

Both starts have the same arrangement of "end parts" and "loop parts".  However, the colours of the "parts" change with the different starts and yield the different designs.

Cheers - Brian.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2005, 06:45:37 PM by Brian_Grimley »

knudeNoggin

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Re: ABOK #2952
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2005, 09:15:55 PM »
Quote
If I take a two coloured line, say blue from the midpoint to the left and white from the midpoint to the right and arrange it as show in ABOK 2952, I get a checked design like ABOK 3000 (following the directions shown in ABOK 2952).

I cannot agree.  Some people seem to be tying what they know, not what they see.
As pointed out above, the instruction of #2952, which is verbal only in "follow the
diagrams in rotation", referencing the contested images, is wrong:
the 1st & 2nd conflict; the 2nd makes a crossing knot.  The arrows are not ambiguous,
and require deliberate effort to have the arrows cross under the bight, which in BOTH
cases seems to be incorrect for the objective!

If Willeke's structure is what Ashley intended, then he should have shown the forming
of the one-way twist of ends within/between bight legs followed by the other-way
twist of bight legs between ends ("one-/other-"way = "S" & "Z" twist).  And that
is something fairly easy to both draw and describe, really!  (I am not here trying
to suggest that therefore Ashley intended otherwise, but just to remark that such
a structure can be simply illustrated verbally & graphically.)

Moreover, Willeke recommends twisting the bight (completely) as a first step, to which
then putting in the countertwists of the ends is easily understood & done.
I should remark that in tying this stucture w/o doing this, the twisting of the bight
results in counter-twists forming below where I am working, and ultimately will
become overwhelming, making the choice to reverse the respective twist in both
bight (done by torsion) and end so to finish!

So here we have yet another ERROR to include in ABOK, without doubt.


*knudeNoggin*