Author Topic: Dental Floss - Challenge  (Read 11597 times)

JimC

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Dental Floss - Challenge
« on: December 05, 2005, 02:54:09 AM »
Been trying to find a simple but effective knot to make a loop (say about 6"dia) in "dental floss (tape variety)".

Have tried all the usual suspects:- surgeons, overhand, double overhand, sheet bend, double sheet bend,  figure eight, fishermans, etc. but no success yet. They all slip under strain.

Any suggestions (do try them first)?


merickson

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Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2005, 05:10:10 AM »
ABOK #1021 worked for me.

Make a slip knot (pulling on the end undoes the knot).
Take the end and tie a half hitch around the loop just next to the knot.
Done.

http://www.igkt.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=news;action=display;num=1126738621
has a discussion of ABOK #1021

KnotNow!

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Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2005, 05:33:44 AM »
Hi Jim C,
 Floss can be slippery stuff.  I think I am a little confused so I'll ask you to help me a bit.  Some of the knots you have tried are bends.  None seem to be loop knots, or I may have missundersood... again... one thing I am very good at. ???
 Merickson offered a loop knot.. and your original post mentioned a loop... but I don't think you intend a loop, as at the end of a line.. bowline sort of structure.. nor ABOK #1021, which is a loop knot and works just fine in waxed floss.
 Help me and maybe I can help you.  Are you bending two ends of slippery floss to form a grommet or continous loop?  Are you putting a loop at the end of a line?
 So if Merickson read you correctly you are off and running.. If I read you correctly then there are many fine bends that will never slip, but I need to know if that is where you are searching.  Also if I am correct in that you are looking for a bend... what books do you have.. or I should say do you have ABOK or any of G.Budworth's most excellent books.  This is because since ABOK some knots for slippery stuff have come on board.. and GB has illustrated them most wonderfully... Good luck.  Is it a bend or a loop?
ROY S. CHAPMAN, IGKT-PAB BOARD.

knudeNoggin

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Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2005, 09:01:25 AM »
"loop" is one of the most overused knotting terms, and so results in continual
confusion, ambiguity; I take the problem here to be joining ends of slick thin tiny
tape to make a circle of the stuff (to what end, though?  --could make it easier
to use in the mouth (which could lead to making it more likely to be used!)).

Well, thank you for an exercise in most frustrating material!!
Is this going to get us to give up flossing?

In any case, the most obvious solution to my mind to bend to ends of this slick,
tiny tape together is the Blood bend/knot--both for security AND easy tying!
(Did I say "easy"?  >:( )
Well, if you have some tweezers, you can bring each line around on opposite sides
of the tweezer end (or some other device that can pull ends with), and make
relatively easy wraps of the ends around the opposing SPart and then bring both
ends together to be tweezed-nipped and thus pulled through the center point,
and then draw up the knot carefully (perhaps maintaining grip on the ends until
the knot body tightens enough to hold them).

And maybe the Fisherman's would work were one to finish it with the extension
of tucking the ends back down between the two lines at the center before
pulling the Overhand components tight against each other.  (worked for me)
Perhaps some of the knots you found wanting might also work if you take care
to hold the ends while tightening--which can be hard to do in this material.

*knudeNoggin*
« Last Edit: December 05, 2005, 09:07:49 AM by knudeNoggin »

Willeke

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Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2005, 02:23:43 PM »
As a guiderule, I would say try the knots used in monofilament fishingline.

I do not understand what you need the knot for, but if bulkyness is no problem the books on fishing knots may help you out.

Willeke
"Never underestimate what a simple person can do with clever tools,
nor what a clever person can do with simple tools." - Ian Fieggen

Writer of A booklet on lanyards, available from IGKT supplies.

Brian_Grimley

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Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2005, 03:47:45 PM »
http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_Bends.htm show both the Ashley's Bend (ABOK #1542) and the Zepplin (Rosendahl) Bend. I used these to form a circle by bending the ends: worked for me (no slip before breaking).

http://www.texasgulfcoastfishing.com/perfection_loop.htm shows the Perfection Loop. It formed a nice loop, in the end of a length of dental floss, that didn't slip.

By the way, the dental floss I used was waxed. I wonder if non-waxed floss would give different results.

Cheers - Brian.

nautile

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Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2005, 05:43:02 PM »
Not sure I understand all the implications of the first post but : Hope I am not "too much" outside subject.

If practical question on how to hold dental floss : this is, though I suppose every one "do it like that", how I proceeded the last 40 years ( works even with skin humid or slightly soapy ).
I feel always easier to "read" a knot in pic, diagram, drawing than with words that I always feel awkwards and with often the "vector" missing in my understanding.

For the pic it is hemp of about 0,6 mm in diameter ( did not want to   good dental floss of which I realized I need to buy some more as I will be soon on "shortage" and it is easier to see)
Had the devil of a time to take pic with both hands being the "model" ! pencil in mouth, camera behind a magnyfying glass, and ....)


http://tinyurl.com/cpb32


If theorical question for "slippery material"

When I want to play and experiment how "slippy" a structure is :

I use 3 strands nylon about 3/32   or 2.5mm, ( this size make it is still easy to see what is happening )

and apply either liquid silicon lubricant or WD40 ( smelly, for long time  is the WD40       and I prefer silicon, though WD40 insert itself more readily everywhere in the knot).
If it does not slip with that coating I count it as  "not highly likely to slip with a non "greasy" rope".
( of course these substances surely alter the rope but just for testing "slippiness" it is not an adverse effec to take in linet)





nautile

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Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2005, 08:32:32 PM »
Hi
This is what I found

26 different dental flosses, made from silk, polyamide (Nylon) or Teflon, were analyzed with respect to their surface structure and their cross-section. Principally, two different types of manufacturing could be distinguished. The dental flosses either consisted of a large number of individual fibers, or a single, falted membrane. Even flosses that were manufactured in the same manner revealed considerable differences.
in http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8235532&dopt=Abstract

that is important in dental hygien as well as in knot to know that if comparing is to be made. It is not sure that the same "behavoiur" is to be expected with a wide range of "material"
I only knew befor that : silk, polyethylene,  polytetrafluoroethylene, nylon, tefon, and the old, old one : sinew fibers
some are mono filament some are multi-filaments, (braid), some ar so rigid hat they are used "needlelike" (superfloss)
there are thin, medium, thick
There are waxed and not-waxed

so : dental floss can be many things, stating in which one you are making your experiment ( knots only) could be quite important to comparison of "opinions" and "interpretations of results"

JimC

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Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2005, 01:21:35 AM »
Sorry I was out of the loop overnight (that happens when you live down under).

Sorry to cause confusion with terminology. KnudeNoggin is right on the money.  What I'm looking for is an easy (as in simple and convienient) way to create a "circle" of the stuff to facilitate the use for which it is designed (no more 'cut-off-circulation' from multiple frapping turns around index fingers).

Obviously be nice to have a solution that doesn't need jewellers tools and eye glass.

I suspect a tripple fisherman's bend would do it but not exactly something that can be tied with eyes half shut in a semi dark bathroom with pink queue at door.

Thanks for suggestions folks.



roo

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Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2005, 01:56:18 AM »
Quote
Sorry I was out of the loop overnight (that happens when you live down under).

Sorry to cause confusion with terminology. KnudeNoggin is right on the money.  What I'm looking for is an easy (as in simple and convienient) way to create a "circle" of the stuff to facilitate the use for which it is designed (no more 'cut-off-circulation' from multiple frapping turns around index fingers).

Obviously be nice to have a solution that doesn't need jewellers tools and eye glass.

...



Ah, I see what you're doing.  You can buy flossing tools to spare your fingers, although since I've never tried them, I can't say how easy or effective they are.  

http://tinyurl.com/e2vx6

Maybe you can find some tough flexible tubing to protect your fingers.  ;D
« Last Edit: December 06, 2005, 01:58:49 AM by roo »
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JimC

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Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2005, 05:51:44 AM »
Now that would be a solution but not really an answer Roo.

Have tried several of the suggestions and, so for, the Zepplin bend seems to work best, and not to complex either. Thanks Brian.

Regards
JimC

knudeNoggin

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Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2005, 08:28:25 AM »
Well, I'm impressed that you can find Rosendahl's "Zeppelin" bend to be the
best of the lot--seems a bother to tie in the fiddly stuff.  (And a bigger bother to
UNtie, as I wanted to do in order to try another knot--finally did so by loading it and
one end slipped out; the other's Overhand then needed prodding & a fine point.)

"a pink queue" :D :  are you tying a new one each time?  --just re-use, like the tooth
brush.  Btw, I've some of those finger-saving things; my impression is that the line
used (was fibrous, not tape) frayed too quickly, and they aren't all so handy.

Another idea:  turn one end around the opposite SPart, and between your fingers
give this newly formed bight a good twisting (moisten fingers for friction?);
then wrap the opp. SPart (i.e., the one just turned around, so far unknotted) around the
twisted bight (same direction makes sense, at least lest one untwist ...) and finish
by tucking this end back between bight head/tip & Spart (a la Sheet Bend, in a way).
Hold both ends and draw up the knot slowly.

You see, I'm looking for easy tying, and for the material ample turns, and a simple
tuck, then careful, all-parts-tensioned setting.
This tape floss is really slick!

*knudeNoggin*

roo

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Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2005, 07:46:47 PM »
Quote
Now that would be a solution but not really an answer Roo.

Have tried several of the suggestions and, so for, the Zepplin bend seems to work best, and not to complex either. Thanks Brian.

Regards
JimC


You must not be using Glide.  Glide floss is coated with teflon and so a Zeppelin Bend or just about any other well-known knot just slithers out.    

Next time you are floss shopping, pick some up for some great knotting frustration if not for flossing.  ;)
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JimC

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Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2005, 12:44:32 AM »
You are right Roo. That was short lived success. Tried another waxier, slipperier brand and zepplin bend doesn't hold in it.

Blood knot holds for awhile but seems the waxxy ribbon stuff will slip out of just about anything.

Back to ABOK.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Dental Floss - Challenge
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2005, 01:52:38 AM »
Quote
You are right Roo. That was short lived success. Tried another waxier, slipperier brand and zepplin bend ...

=>"Rosendahl's Bend":  it's not just for zeppelin's, ya know.
So, how about making a 2nd finishing tuck w/each end?

Quote
Blood knot holds for awhile but seems the waxxy ribbon stuff will slip out of just about anything.

Here, again, how many tucks are you using in the Blood?
And how much force are you putting on the knot?!  The stated need of a practical
one (not for test machine), and Gliding to my bathroom cabinet I find that although
indeed that thin tape is eel-ishly slick, several of the recommended knots seem to hold
--maybe until being pulled REALLY hard, but at a force that worries me about just
breaking the stuff, anyway.  Just make a 2nd tuck to the Blood, then.
One could off-load the knot a little by making a round turn on one digit with the
knot on the interior, half-way point of this turn.  But, again, what's been tried above
seems adequate to the flossing task.

Quote
Back to ABOK.

Why there?  --Ashley's not familiar with this stuff (or much of synthetics)!
One will need to do exploratory knotting with an eye to using perhaps a few
well-nipped tucks.
Perhaps just make an Offset Overhand (Thumb) Bend after tying the Blood knot
(i.e., tie an Overhand loopknot such that the Blood is centered in the eye, and snug
up the Overhand to this):  the OOB might slip & roll once, but it shouldn't be able
to roll (flype) AROUND the Blood, nor deliver sufficient force to slip through the Blood.

--dl*
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