Author Topic: Internal functioning of knots  (Read 3013 times)

nautile

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 181
  • G'day to you from France
Internal functioning of knots
« on: December 07, 2005, 07:47:09 PM »
Dear Father Xmas,

I have been the perfect good boy all year round, swear it is true, so for Xmas  :

Please Dear Father Xmas "knots functionnalist"  can you ( even if it is just for me alone, though I feel that I am not the only one left stranded when those words appear, in what I feel, is a not a constant and overall-recognized, "usage" and "meaning")



the complete nomenclature of all the words applied to discussing "knot behavior"( no redundancy - no miss - no "out of topic" - high-precision-crafted - revisable - extendable - easy to get at - easy to understand without a cryptology PhD):-)

You see Dear Father Xmas, I am not really asking for much ; still being the good guy I ever am.

or even only  a tip about a "valid" publication,
or a "validated" Net link  on this thematic which most of the time leave my neurons sizzling and blocked.
So much "pseudo-synonymy", so an easy going manner of using one word or another for what seems to me the same concept, or the same word for what I understand as two different concepts.
So I am dumb and in much need of help, of being led by the hand on the right track.


Just a few words to begin with for this "commonly adjusted and accepted" functionnal nomenclature I missed so much:

CAST (TO)
THROW  (TO)
TIE  (TO)
(AB)NORMAL END LOAD
CAPSIZE  (TO) - CAPSIZING
COLLAPSE (TO)
DRESSED
FAILURE
FLIP  (TO)  -  FLIPPING - "FLYPING" (?)
JAM (TO)  - JAMMING
LOAD (TO)  -  UNLOAD (TO)
LOADING ( irregular - regular)
SAFE - UNSAFE
SECURE - UNSECURE
SET
SLACKING
STABLE - UNSTABLE
TIED
TIGHTENING
TO SPILL - SPILLING - SPILLED
UNRAVEL  (TO) - UNRAVELLING
UNTIED - UNTIE

Please, we can all go to dictionnaries so not those 'definitions' but, in a structured manner, and not haphazardly dispersed everywhere on forums, with the subtler shades and tones, the why, when and how of use of these words in internal-working-of-knot-context. Principles and clear examplifying of application in clear cut real cases.


While we are at it can I get with it a complete lexicon of the shorthand used.
Shorthand like  ( only put those that I decrypted ): bwl,OvH,HH ,TH ,Spart.

Though I dont believe that the use of this shorthand really help to heighten the clarity of what is being said.
Help only the "writer" in saving time, key entries, and crispness of style.

Only one letter wrong in a word can be "put right" by the reader, not so with an acronym 2 or 3 letters  long. (IMOFHRSO).
That is 'in my often falsely humble really subjective opinion' but I am sure everyone undertsood it first time without me needing to clarify it. :-)

So everyone, in 2006, wanting to, can take a hand in the structure-functionning-usage-naming discussion with the right tool. No excuse left.:-)

Cheers.

     Nautile  

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3977
Re: Internal functioning of knots
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2005, 11:20:25 PM »
Quote
Just a few words to begin with for this "commonly adjusted and accepted" functionnal nomenclature I missed so much:


CAST (TO)
THROW  (TO)

This one I think you know has medical use, esp. for tying a squaREef bend, as in
"number of throws", "making the 2nd throw ...".

TIE  (TO)
(AB)NORMAL END LOAD

What purpose comes from "end"?  In some real situations a knot can be compressed
by something, but I think that's not sufficient to require "end" as a qualifier.

CAPSIZE  (TO) - CAPSIZING
COLLAPSE (TO)

Likely this one is dropped, with "capsize" adequate!?

DRESSED

"dress" & "set" are pretty well defined/used, good knotting terms.

FAILURE
FLIP  (TO)  -  FLIPPING - "FLYPING" (?)

"flype" is a subset of capsizing--a particular way (which might leave the knot unchanged
but for physical position!).

JAM (TO)  - JAMMING
LOAD (TO)  -  UNLOAD (TO)
LOADING ( irregular - regular)

No, stick with "abnormal/normal" (non-redundant).

SAFE - UNSAFE

Maybe too subjective to purpose.

SECURE - UNSECURE

There is "s./~s. when slack" as an important consideration.  E.g., the Bwl is amply
secure in most materials under a (normal) load, but can loosen if untensioned in
climbing rope (and other).   I've used "slack-secure"(?!).

SET
SLACKING

Sounds like "unloading" or "untensioning".  (The latter might be what is used by
some sources--need to check.)

STABLE - UNSTABLE
TIED
TIGHTENING
TO SPILL - SPILLING - SPILLED
UNRAVEL  (TO) - UNRAVELLING

--an annoying term in that it means "ravel" (something Brion Toss piqued in one of
his writings).  (flammable & inflammable)  Would like to NOT bother with it.

UNTIED - UNTIE

I've found "untiable" to be a problem, as it easily can be ambiguous between  something
hard to tie vs. able to be untied easily.  A substitute for latter sense is wanted.
(Well, avoid the ambiguous term completely, preferably.)

Quote
While we are at it can I get with it a complete lexicon of the shorthand used.
Shorthand like  ( only put those that I decrypted ): bwl,OvH,HH ,TH ,Spart.

Though I dont believe that the use of this shorthand really help to heighten the clarity of what is being said.
Help only the "writer" in saving time, key entries, and crispness of style.

Yes, saving keystrokes (and reading).  And it's 'SPart'.  THAT term, btw, is one I think
really wants a replacement:  I take it that it's main use was of a part of rope defined
AT THE TYING STAGE, whereas I mainly want to denote a part of the knot that bears
full tension (which often results from same part of tying, but ...).

Missed above are:

LOOP
--terribly overloaded; "eye" might help take one sense.

BIGHT
--interesting conflict that Ashley has w/himself on this, maybe showing some evolution
in his thinking.  And related expressions ...

IN THE BIGHT
ON THE BIGHT
WITH THE/A BIGHT

We had some discussion of this, and I came 'round to understanding Ashley courtesy of I
think Jimbo's citation; but I didn't like Ashley's apparent discrimination so much.

--dl*
====

nautile

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 181
  • G'day to you from France
Re: Internal functioning of knots
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2005, 11:55:27 PM »
Thanks for your help.

Nothing really new here for me except the "flype" that I had not understood.
Notheless I sometime had the notion, when reading some commentary on knots , that those words I knew, were not used in the same manner I learned or that are in the dictionnaries.

It was not your particular way to use these words, I find you rather clear,  that prompt me to post  : my list was a partial census of what I have seen, on the net.
I thought at the time it was a good idea to set a "common ground" on which all "suscribe" and to open a thread directed at "function". Was quite egoist : wanted to vampirized other's knowledge.
I understood the terms just as you explained them, but it seems that there are so many "synonymes" yet giving sometimes the notion that they were put to special use to give a particular detail in the case exposed that I do not find that "globally" it is a very "standardized" manner to express oneself.

My findings is that it is not always , with every one, a constant or congruent use of a definite set of terms in discussing the inners of the knots, or that not everyone use the same word with really the same meaning.
Babel effect on my part surely I am sad to have to admit.

I have the distinct feeling that when someone like you or Brian, just to name two, at ease with the topic, went on the inner functionning, a sudden pall descended and only two or three still "followed".
Was mistaken then, am the only one lost in this maze.

So OK the mist was in my head and not "outside" or on the window pane.

Did someone wrote a dedicated "glossary" or a book on this problem ? Or is it just here and there that one can glean a notion and then another one further on.

Must need some rest.
Cheers

Jimbo

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 114
  • Happy Knotting!
Re: Internal functioning of knots
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2005, 09:53:24 PM »
Howdy, all!

Knot to put a kink in this thread, but...

I beg and plead with you all:  PLEASE let's try to get to a point where "jargon" words have specific meanings!!  The whole "BIGHT" issue, and the vague notions of "LEAD" and "LOOP", etc. do not help us communicate!

I wanted to toss in a few terms too.

FAIR -- the aspect of having a smooth, finished appearance - making the knot more secure as well as worthy "to be countenanced".

LAY -- that which is considered "FAIR"

FRAY -- to UNRAVEL, usually unintentionally, usually as a result of wear or use.  Not to be confused with:

FAY -- to UNRAVEL on purpose, which seems to go with SCRAPING and TEASING...

TENSION, COMPRESSION, FRICTION (straight from Physics 101)

TURN

ROUND TURN

CROSSING

NIP

LEAD, LEAD, LEAD (can we have a different word, please?)

PLY, DOUBLE, DOUBLING ("DOUBLED TWICE" is just "DOUBLED", not "TRIPLED"??)

...

Hopefully this will bump this topic.  It needs participation and development!!

There are a lot of us here who have barked up this tree already.

I agree with DanL, that "SPart" needs a friend.  What would the other end be?  The "Running Part" ("RPart")??  Not picking on Dan, and you know I've given props where due, but it's an example of how sometimes something helpful can end up "standing proud" like those annoying fuzzy ends on a splice...

Say....

That reminds me!  If inadvertent ends sticking up are called "Hag's Teeth", what would they be called if they're on purpose?  I can hardly feel "proud" of seeing my splices with hairy strand ends "standing proud"!!

But I digress...

I seem to recall several threads all wrapped around this same concept.  The name I use is "taxonomy", but there are a lot of names (grammar, lexicon, ...) that mean the same thing.  It's the results that matter, and Brian_Grimley has also put up some very thought-provoking comments on the topic.

As to
Quote
wanted to vampirized other's knowledge
, I call that "Standing on the shoulders of giants".  It's the only way any society or population can evolve successfully.  If each of us had to reinvent everything, none of us would make it to breeding age!  If not for the marlingspike training on the forecastle, there would be no forecastle on which to train.  And no, you're not the only one "lost in this maze"!!!  If it helps, just realize that, it's quite likely that CWA himself was addressing this very problem when he wrote his ABoOK...  That's what I think, anyway.  I could be wrong, but...

We're all behind you on this, Nautile!!  Well, a lot of us are, anyway.  The others will be, as soon as the train starts moving.  "If you build it (your knot grammar), they will come!"  8)  But meanwhile, don't mistake deep reflection for
Quote
a sudden pall descended
-- It could just be we're snoozing.  Or working.  Or perhaps it's just ...

Time to go...


Jimbo
Thank you all, for everything.  As of 6/6/6, I have changed my password to a random string (which I forgot), thereby assuring that anyone posting as "Jimbo" in the future will NOT be me.  Good luck!!!