Author Topic: Slipknot Bowline, how to form the slipknot  (Read 5428 times)

[Inkanyezi] gone

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 340
    • Pro three strand splice
Slipknot Bowline, how to form the slipknot
« on: December 01, 2010, 01:36:25 PM »
Maybe I have mentioned earlier that I got the idea for the slipknot bowline from Brion Toss, The Complete Rigger Wire and Rope.

The way he shows it in the book does not work, but it inspired me to develop a method that does. The problem with Brion's slipknot is that it is too tight, and he also claims that he just pulls the standing part, which is never enough to create the bowline. The slipknot must be held open, so that it may easily capsize over the collar that is deliberately formed by holding the end away, while you pull the standing part toward you. Omitting those steps, it is bound to fail.

I have made a video that shows how to do it:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MobYH2Iy-CY

However, it might be a bit difficult to follow when you don't see it from your own vantage point when making the knot. I have taken a few pictures of how the slipknot is formed:
 
  • First I take the end in my right hand and lay the rope over the fingers of my left hand
    and raise my right hand to pull out rope length for the loop. (image 1)
       
  • Then I raise my left hand, the bight of the rope still over the fingers,
    and I lower my right hand to grab the standing part, with the end on the far side. (image 2)
       
  • The right hand is raised so that the left hand can grab the bight of the standing part. (image 3)
       
  • I grab the bight only loosely, pushing my fingers through, to form a marlingspike hitch (slipknot) over my fingers. (image 4)
« Last Edit: December 01, 2010, 06:25:04 PM by Inkanyezi »
All images and text of mine published on the IGKT site is licensed according to a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License.
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/

[Inkanyezi] gone

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 340
    • Pro three strand splice
Re: Slipknot Bowline, how to form the slipknot
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2010, 01:38:19 PM »
The next step is to again raise the right hand and let the standing part run through it, while still holding the slipknot open.

Then I pass the end around or into the object where I will make fast, into my left hand, slipknot still open, whereupon I pull the end through the slipknot. I then hold the end with my left hand away from me, while I pull the standing part, and the slipknot easily rolls over to form the bowline.

As I have stated before, making knots the easy way is a choreography. Once you have it in your hands, it will not be forgotten, and the risk of mistying is negligible.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2010, 08:59:17 AM by Inkanyezi »
All images and text of mine published on the IGKT site is licensed according to a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License.
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3903
Re: Slipknot Bowline, how to form the slipknot
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2010, 05:09:19 PM »
>> The next part is to raise the right hand and let the standing part run through it.

Why are we here moving the SPart?
It seems to me that one raise the right hand so as to pull the
slip-knot structure closer together, preparing for the left hand
to take the tail through the overhand noose (what this so-called
"Slip-knot" shows itself to be, given loading) and then one must
collapse the structure into a bowline --which collapse can go
astray of a desired outcome by failing to fully form, or forming
with too loose a collar (YMMV on circumstances).

It also should be the case that on the early step(s), one needs to grasp
the rope slightly with the left hand in order to prevent slippage/shifting;
the thumb pinch is both natural but problematic for getting to a later
step where one wants to grasp the tail.

A subtlety of this method is the position of the drooping end part of
the rope vis-a-vis the SPart --it must hang on the one not the other
side : pulling a line towards oneself would make this positioning
harder to achieve, naturally (one must beware).

An *assurance* of the method is forming the common bowline.  (I find
that in my own such tyings otherwise I often get the tail-on-outside form.)


On balance, I think I prefer the method Brion Toss's Rigger's Apprentice
presents : with the line extended away from the body by the right hand
(or otherwise), the left hand reaches & quickly turns under-back_around**
-over-&-back, then grips the SPart to pull through the just-formed loop
(with aid from the left hand if needed), and then one can choose which
way to insert the tail (for either the common or "left-handed" bowline).

(** "back_around" ::=> the hand must turn around the TAIL side of its
contact point (otherwise, one will end up forming an Eskimo bowline
(which Joe McNichols claims to favor!?)) ; Brion's presentation has the
line going out around a pile, so this hand-turn is easier, made with its
extension; in the orientation presented above, the hand-turn would curl
back towards one's body.)

Thanks,
--dl*
====

knot4u

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1076
Re: Slipknot Bowline, how to form the slipknot
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2010, 06:52:01 PM »
I use the technique in the original post when the standing end is coming toward me.  It's also shown here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lightning_bowline_load.png

I use this technique when the standing end is going away from me:
http://www.donnerskipatrol.org/bowline1hand.jpg

These techniques are quite fast with a little practice, another reason the Bowline is in my Top 10.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 09:00:19 PM by knot4u »

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3903
Re: Slipknot Bowline, how to form the slipknot
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2010, 06:34:30 AM »
I use this technique when the standing end is going away from me:
http://www.donnerskipatrol.org/bowline1hand.jpg

These techniques are quite fast with a little practice, another reason the Bowline is in my Top 10.

(This appears to be a copy of --I think-- The Morrow Book of Knots ;
I wonder if the site has permission to copy it?)

This is an unfortunate choice of starting maneuvre & knot orientation :
the hand should go the other way, coming from beneath the line,
which leaves the line supporting itself in the intermediate steps,
and results in the right side --i.e., the more *informative* face--
of the knot being in view!  Sadly, the bowline is typically presented
the other way 'round (and there is slower understanding of the knot,
thus, IMO).  For what is seen of the knot in this orientation are the
legs of the (tail) bight, the crossing of the SPart loop partly obscured,
whereas done the other way 'round, you see the less obvious parts
and partly obscure the easily envisioned parallel bight legs.

--dl*
====

[Inkanyezi] gone

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 340
    • Pro three strand splice
Re: Slipknot Bowline, how to form the slipknot
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2010, 11:47:18 AM »
Of course "raising the right hand" equals lowering the left hand. When the method is learned, both will occur, sometimes more one than the other, depending on just where you're going to make fast. One of the prerequisites is of course that the standing part does not have any particular orientation from start. Whenever the line is short or if there is any load on it, other methods of making fast are preferred.

But the important steps here, which Brion omitted, are that 1 the "slipknot" should be a marlingspike hitch, kept open, because otherwise it will not dependably roll over the collar that is formed 2 by holding the end away while drawing up, so that the TurNip may roll into place easily.

Just as with most other ways of making knots, there is a choreography involved, planting the movements to make the knot correctly into the body memory. There will be no need to check the pattern or even remember it, once the steps are set into a dance. That's why I also prefer the visually somewhat more complicated sequence for making the Zeppelin. It might look awkward, but once you have it into your hands, it will stay there and work the same way, whether you're making the bend or the loop.

And my experience is that this method of making the "slipknot" bowline, will not fail.

On the "hand" method shown at the link is one to avoid if the other end of the line is fixed to anything that moves or can move. One prerequisite for making a bowline at all, is that the line is slack; if not, a belaying knot should be used.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2010, 11:52:52 AM by Inkanyezi »
All images and text of mine published on the IGKT site is licensed according to a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License.
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/

[Inkanyezi] gone

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 340
    • Pro three strand splice
Re: Slipknot Bowline, how to form the slipknot
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2010, 05:22:54 PM »
And maybe I should point it out, as an answer to Dan's question, why the standing part is moved. There's no reason for moving the standing part except in the phase of drawing up, the last moment. In all other movements, it is only still held in the right hand, because it has to go somewhere. If not held through all the movements, it must be taken up again for finishing the knot, but as it is all the time in the right hand and never dropped, the whole is just one fluent movement with both hands.
All images and text of mine published on the IGKT site is licensed according to a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License.
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3903
Re: Slipknot Bowline, how to form the slipknot
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2010, 08:15:06 PM »
But the important steps here, which Brion omitted, are that 1 the "slipknot" should be a marlingspike hitch, kept open, because otherwise it will not dependably roll over the collar that is formed 2 by holding the end away while drawing up, so that the TurNip may roll into place easily.

Perhaps this tying process would be better named "the Marlinespike Bowline "
which avoids the ambiguity of "Slip-knot" (but perhaps only for many by
obscurity in what "M." means)!?

Quote
... there is a choreography involved, planting the movements to make the knot correctly into the body memory.

The foregoing considered, I still find this method needlessly involved,
and think that it is preferable to simply draw out the appropriately sized
eye material with the right hand over the left,
and then begin the knot formation by a quick, inwards (left-towards-right)
turn of the left hand over the span of eye material,
immediately then reaching & seizing the SPart below;
thereafter, the completing steps are pretty much as is
shown above.  This avoid any need of the right hand to
position the eye-span material vis-a-vis the SPart,
and it incorporates the same sort of hand-turn that is
used in another quick-tie method for the bowline to
form the knot's nipping loop.

Quote
And my experience is that this method of making the "slipknot" bowline, will not fail.

What does "fail" signify?  A concern we have indicated with at
least Brion's maybe overly closed "slip-knot" is that the needed
capsizing to cast the tail into the locking bight will not occur.
But another concern is that the finished knot's collar will be
too loose, leading to a capsizing seen often around trawlers
at Cape May (at least).  The quickness of rough formation slows
for some dressing to ensure proper loaded behavior (but one
can see in yachting-magazine photos often enough some pretty
big/loose bowline collars (and also some Eskimo bowlines )).

--dl*
====

[Inkanyezi] gone

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 340
    • Pro three strand splice
Re: Slipknot Bowline, how to form the slipknot
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2010, 08:39:19 PM »
/.../ The foregoing considered, I still find this method needlessly involved,
and think that it is preferable to simply draw out the appropriately sized
eye material with the right hand over the left,
and then begin the knot formation by a quick, inwards (left-towards-right)
turn of the left hand over the span of eye material,
immediately then reaching & seizing the SPart below;
thereafter, the completing steps are pretty much as is
shown above.  This avoid any need of the right hand to
position the eye-span material vis-a-vis the SPart,
and it incorporates the same sort of hand-turn that is
used in another quick-tie method for the bowline to
form the knot's nipping loop.
/.../

--dl*
====

In one of my youtube videos I do that, and I usually call that method "Urbans skothake" (Urban's snapshackle). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTApTsLIe1g
It is about fifty seconds into the clip. There is a shorter snippet at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsTd24n0BGs

There is a drawback with the method when the line is a bit larger, and it is not quite as ergonomically sound as the one shown later in the same video. When the line is large and stiff, there's a considerable effort involved in twisting up a turn in the standing part and picking the "slipknot" through it. Twists are not the very best movements for our hands and arms, the method I show in the beginning of this thread has only soft movements with very little effort. However, with a soft and small line, the "snapshackle" method is faster, so I tend to use it in those situations where others use snapshackles. I attach the sheets like that, but for mooring lines, I prefer the softer movements.

Even with the "snapshackle" method, there is an advantage in holding also the standing part with the right hand. So actually twice the length for the loop is drawn out, whereupon the left hand makes a twist movement, picking up the bight from the standing part through the turn that is formed.

So Dan, you are correct, but for heavier lines I avoid the twist.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2010, 09:07:38 PM by Inkanyezi »
All images and text of mine published on the IGKT site is licensed according to a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License.
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/