Author Topic: 9/11 knot  (Read 7806 times)

squarerigger

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Re: 9/11 knot
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2010, 10:08:14 PM »
Marriage, as in 'tying the knot' uses an actual knot that is tied by the priest using his alb ends to literally tie the couple's hands together at the time that he pronounces to the congregation "Those whom God hath joined together, let no man put asunder" and is a tying of their two lives into one.  So, yes, knot is used in marriage in just the same way....

SR

DerekSmith

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Re: Derek, let's talk about knots
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2010, 01:20:25 AM »
snip...

Maybe what I really meant to say was "Derek, dude!  You're getting on my nerves (and I think I'm not the only one), so cut it out!  Love, Carol."  8)
LOL

"Carol, babe!  You are a breath of fresh air (and I am sure others agree with me), so please continue to chastise me and try to keep this irritating male in his proper place!  Reciprocated Love, Derek  :-*

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Homonym, in the strict sense, one of a group of words that share the same spelling and the same pronunciation but have different meanings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homonym

There are many many words that are homonyms and can only be differentiated by their context.  But in the sense of this discussion, I hope we can ignore all those homonyms for knot that are clearly nothing to do with cordage, and restrict this discussion to the use of the word in our field, where we cannot differentiate sense of meaning between true knots and decorative structures.

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So - Yes Please, as per your post title - let's talk about knots some more, even at the expense of getting on your lovely nerves again.

I doubt any word  was "basic to human existence... even before spoken language"  (I think the former requires the existence of the latter, but I take the gist of your meaning).  However. the term ligare the Late Latin word meaning to bind; to tie; bind, tie, fasten does indicate that BINDING is a fundamental concept of critical importance to man.  Not only physically in the fixing of objects, but also psychologically in binding loyalties.

I believe it is 'binding' that man has been doing since before he was man, and 'Knots' are a tiny specialised subset of 'bindings', that were developed as man developed 'Cordage'.

If we take ABoK as a source, we can see clearly that 'Stopper Knots' range from the simplest overhand to ever larger and beautified creations which eventually took looks beyond functionality.  Eventually, we can see the use of rope and other cordage moving through all sorts of ornamentation.  Along the way we meet sinnits, plaits, mats, weaves, nets etc etc.  Jack Tar never needed to differentiate them other than they were 'ropework' and every item had its unique name.

Today in this Guild we deal with names collected from many nations, trades and times.  The internet and this forum has given us a window that has never existed before into the 'world' of bindings and what we see happening is the broadening of the term 'knots' to encompass all decorative ropework, including that which used to be functional (i.e. stopper knots etc.) but is now purely decorative.

As we here can see this blurring of a working definition of 'knots' from functional bindings to include decorative bindings (which sensibly already have clear definitions - sinnits, braids, weaves etc), only we will be able (or interested) in retaining the clarity that once existed for knots to be functional working bindings in cordage and to differentiate them from purely decorative structures.

Derek



SS369

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Re: 9/11 knot
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2010, 05:09:50 AM »
International Guild of Binding Tyers Forum. 
Has a certain ring to it.
 ;)

SS

DerekSmith

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Re: 9/11 knot
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2010, 10:44:31 AM »
International Guild of Binding Tyers Forum. 
Has a certain ring to it.
 ;)

SS

Or lets stick with International Guild of Knot Tyers, but at least understand that some of the decorative stuff is in reality freehand weaving.

Derek

SS369

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Re: 9/11 knot
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2010, 03:40:28 PM »
Yeah let's.

I understand the differences of the sub-classes, but where and when do you draw the line sometimes is a bit gray.
Example:  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=863.0

And if you tie a knot for a knot board, is it then decorative?

DerekSmith

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Re: 9/11 knot
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2010, 04:23:50 PM »
Yeah let's.

I understand the differences of the sub-classes, but where and when do you draw the line sometimes is a bit gray.
Example:  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=863.0

And if you tie a knot for a knot board, is it then decorative?

Well, I am looking for counter viewpoint on this subject, but at the moment, I feel that the differentiation should essentially be on functionality  - i.e. is the construction a force machine.

In the case of the plaited double, I believe it is clearly a knot - it is a working force machine, bordering however on a splice.

The knotboard however, is purely illustrative, the constructions represent knots but do not perform any function of force machines, so for me - although the Knot Board is seen by many as the knotters 'State of the Art', I believe it is the decorative extension of knotting that has taken it beyond the functionality of force machines.  It is Art, not Knots...

Derek

SS369

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Re: 9/11 knot
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2010, 05:06:53 PM »
To continue, that's what we do.
In the case of a ship's wheel, the king spoke exactly, the knot that is commonly used there to mark its location is traditionally a Turks head knot.
Yes it is decorative, but by the same token it serves a utility, though not a force machine.
Maybe the perception of "force machine" can be perverted to marking a location (doing a job)?

And there are other "force machines" that require a decent amount of weaving (not too much) such as a versatackle, monkey fist, jug sling knot, racking bend, shroud knot bend and many of the friction hitches to name a few.

If you want a hitch that won't ever come undone/untied (on its own) then use a Turks head and leave a line long enough to do the other part of the work.

And when does the illustrative knot become a knot? Is it not a knot, work or not?

KnotMe

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Re: Derek, let's talk about knots
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2010, 05:41:06 AM »
Speaking as someone who has Internet search results for the word "knot" delivered to her email daily (in a variety of languages), people use the word "knot" a lot.  And only rarely are they talking about something involving cord.

"In a variety of languages" :  does this mean "noeude", "knotten", et cetera?

I think the last time I tried this, IGKT didn't do unicode, but maybe that was KnotHeads.  In any case, I'll include the romanizations afterwards just for good measure.  Daily searches include:
中国结, 中國結 (zhong guo jie) Chinese Knots (simplified and traditional)
花結び (hana musubi) flower knots (Japanese)
水引 (mizuhiki) Japanese
仕覆結 (shifuku musubi) Japanese tea bag knots
전통매듭 (jeon tong maedeup) traditional Korean knots
 

Joe McNicholas

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Re: 9/11 knot
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2010, 01:34:40 AM »
how about the 10+/- 1 knot!  :)

Joe McNicholas

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Re: 9/11 knot
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2010, 02:03:26 AM »
te :)nsegrity

Joe McNicholas

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Re: 9/11 knot
« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2010, 02:05:45 AM »
tensegrity