Author Topic: Improving the humble cow hitch  (Read 17283 times)

xarax

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Improving the humble cow hitch
« on: December 04, 2010, 04:19:27 AM »
Improving the humble cow hitch
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 12:19:20 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

knot4u

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Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2010, 05:52:12 AM »
That's a Bull Hitch.
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/bullhitch.html

It jams up like a champ if you use it as a regular hitch.  I'll use it for lightweight stuff like rings, lanyards and whatnot.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2010, 07:08:37 AM »
That's a Bull Hitch.
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/bullhitch.html

It jams up like a champ if you use it as a regular hitch.  I'll use it for lightweight stuff like rings, lanyards and whatnot.

You need to be more careful, here : XaraX has shown TWO versions
of the Bull Hitch; they behave differently.

I have just pulley-loaded the *coil-in* version --i.e., where the
SPart reaches to the away point of the coil-collar and wraps
back towards the object; and I'm feeling like I'm wrestling with
a "champ", indeed !  (7mm soft-laid CoEx PP/PE, not new, on a 'biner)
(... had to *cheat* to untie : i.e., slid the knot off of the 'biner's gate!)

But the other version took if anything a greater load
(I did some bouncing) and untied pretty easily.

Thinking that adding another turn would ease the difficulty of
the jamming version, I gave it a go : ... "champ" time again!

.:.  It appears that one can pick one's behavior per orientation
(and do so appropriate to need).

--dl*
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SS369

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Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2010, 02:46:42 PM »
Even using " marks, I'd be very careful saying/naming this an improved Prusik. I have a hunch that it does not actually improve the gripping/sliding action of the Prusik.
A hunch says that it transfers more of the bite to the center, limiting the spread of the grip.
But I do like the idea of adding round turns to some established knots, to ease strain, friction, load bearing ability and ease of untying. Not necessarily all of the before.
And it adds a little "something" to them for me in the decorative knot zone.

Scott

SS369

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Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2010, 03:47:47 PM »
I do think the adding of the additional wraps increases some potential load bearing of the cow hitch, but it still depends upon the actual loads and its behavior, i.e., dynamic or static.
Maybe even more wraps around the we/sp..   Though we may be back to lashings. lol

SS

knot4u

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Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2010, 07:25:10 PM »
I tied a Bull.  Then, I tied what looks like your Improved Cow.  Both knots look exactly the same.  If you're saying they're different, then you should loosen those knots in the pics to show the difference.

Anyway, in the original post, let's pretend that both ends have equal lengths.  In that case, the only difference between the two pics would be that one hitch is tied "left-handed" and the other is tied "right handed", right?

BEFORE you go off on an extended lecture, try to answer that question directly, thanks.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2010, 08:05:31 PM by knot4u »

knot4u

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Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2010, 09:14:01 PM »
Now that I understand the pics, I'm more confident in my naming it a Bull Hitch.  :)

Here's another pic:
http://books.google.com/books?id=GbeV0iKl8EgC&pg=PA120&lpg=PA120&dq=piwich+knot&source=bl&ots=ItGK6RAM3q&sig=KLg1jQv7cGjqjXMMFsezfAkVDUo&hl=en&ei=Mhb2TLXoDYLQsAOQz8CoCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCgQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=piwich%20knot&f=false

The author shows 6 diagrams of the Bull Hitch.  Examine the diagrams closely.  The author ties it two ways like the two ways in your original post, and he calls each way a Bull Hitch.

 In that case, the only difference between the two pics would be that one hitch is tied "left-handed" and the other is tied "right handed", right?

   Wrong ! The short rope strand is the tail, while the long rope strand is the standing end. You pull the hitch from the standing end! It makes a big difference which one of the two rope strands is the one and which is the other. The short rope strand ends in the frame of the picture, but the long rope strand ends in your hand !

Actually, I'm right.  You conveniently deleted the sentence before, which was there to set up my question.  There is no short rope in my question.  I said pretend the ends are equal length.  I asked the question for my personal understanding of how the knot is tied.  You went ahead and answered a different question that I was not asking.  A simple yes or no to my question would have sufficed.  That's why I asked you not to lecture because, as I predicted, the lecture was useless, as it answered something I was not asking.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2010, 09:30:53 PM by knot4u »

knot4u

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Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2010, 09:35:05 PM »
After you listen to any short or extended lecture, and before you decide to correct the lecturer, be sure you understood the issue !
Thanks

Apparently, you don't understand the issue.  Your knots in the original post have been published before with color illustrations and pictures.  If you showed pics that are easier to identify, then I could have informed this thread sooner.  However, since you seem to know everything, carry on with your virtual classroom with your virtual students, pretending as if those knots are new when they're not.
http://books.google.com/books?id=GbeV0iKl8EgC&pg=PA120&lpg=PA120&dq=piwich+knot&source=bl&ots=ItGK6RAM3q&sig=KLg1jQv7cGjqjXMMFsezfAkVDUo&hl=en&ei=Mhb2TLXoDYLQsAOQz8CoCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCgQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=piwich%20knot&f=false

Regards
« Last Edit: December 04, 2010, 09:43:04 PM by knot4u »

SS369

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Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2010, 10:44:46 PM »
Communication is an high art and it seems that we get stuck sometimes finger painting.

I am enjoying (up to a point) this discourse that has perhaps been looked at or tried by many others before us, but I do not want to stifle the process in any way except to ask that we stay on track and not dive into the heated abyss to which no one really succeeds.
The smell down there is vile.
Just distractions.
To whomever: Please continue to write away in intelligent fashion so that we can, with open minds, give considerations to what is presented.

admin

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Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2010, 10:49:42 PM »
Korgan: Can you please moderate your language? Not everyone appreciates a discussion that veers into Anglo-Saxon invectives. ;) If a thread begins to annoy you, I can heartily recommend the "Mark as read" button.

Thank you.

SS369

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Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2010, 12:47:15 AM »
The added round turns encircling the hitched to object certainly does not hurt to spread load as shown in the pictures, but I do wonder if additional nipping turns are worth anything. Unless there is a pendulous swinging action then these additional rings of cord can spread across the nipped area.

I think it better to keep this hitch in its simplest form and if the need is greater, graduate to a more likely hitch to better suit the situation.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 12:50:12 AM by SS369 »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2010, 03:33:24 AM »
 If you showed pics that are easier to identify, then I could have informed this thread sooner.

???

You informed this thread immediately --the first reply.
To which I followed up with a point about the effective differences
between the two orientations.  This should have informed you and
anticipated/precluded your later antagonizing questions.

Good find with Budworth, who glosses over the differences without remark
--typical of knots books (and a thorny question about making Book Reviews
to point out the lazy presentations of celebrated IGKT members in their own
quarterly! --a current thread under ChitChat).

 - - - - -

I concur in Scott's doubting the "improved Prusik hitch" vis-a-vis that
knot's raison d'etre ; but with regard to Knot4U's point about jamming,
one can view this Prusik variation as what XaraX casts it as (if only nomimally),
viz. an improved Cow --the improvement being an extra wrap around the
object to absorb force and mitigate the risk of jamming (when used,
as Knot4U implies, to secure a circular sling to something) : i.e., one can
get more moderate tightness in the knot-securing turns around its ends
(and for what it's worth, some better security at holding its position on
the object, to boot).

--dl*
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knot4u

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Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2010, 07:53:01 PM »
An important note, I don't consider the Bull to be an improvement of the Cow.  I tie the Cow specifically because the Cow has NO hold when there is no load.  That's not a flaw.  That's a feature.  The Bull removes this feature and competes in the realm of tightly holding hitches, such as the Buntline, the Anchor Bend, the Lobster Buoy, the Round Turn With Two Halfs, the Boom, etc.  I don't view the Cow as being in this space, and the unique features of the Cow are highly preferable sometimes.  By the way, I like to secure the working end of the Cow with a Double Bowline for a combination that is quick tying/quick releasing.  This combination is usually my anchor knot in a Trucker's Hitch.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2010, 06:13:49 AM by knot4u »

knot4u

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Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2010, 09:13:25 PM »
  I tie the Cow specifically because the Cow has NO hold when there is no load. That's not a flaw.  That's a feature. .. the unique features of the Cow are highly preferable sometimes.

  So you are saying that the Bull hitch - at least those two variations that I have considered in my first post, because the "Bull hitch X" variation is a little different on this, - destroys a feature of the Cow hitch that enables it to revolve around and/or move alongside the poles s axis freely, without been hooked to a certain position by any occasional loading.
   I had not this feature in mind when I was looking for its "improvement" by the addition of the nipping loops(s), obviously. On the contrary, I was searching for ways to improve the gripping power of the Cow hitch, or of the "Bull hitch X", even while it is not loaded, and ways to secure the one end, the tail, even after it has been loaded. That was my intention in the case of the Prusik, too, at least for the case where the loaded ends are at right angle with the pole s axis. The existence of the nipping loop(s) prevent the wraps of "eating" rope length out of the standing end or the tail, so the hitch remains in a tightened state around the pole even when it is not loaded.

If you want security when unloaded, then yes the Bull is obviously an improvement on the Cow.  Regarding the Prusik, I view that knot as a similar concept to the Cow.  When not loaded, the releasing of the Prusik is a feature, not a flaw.  If you add the nipping loops, you place these knots (Cow and Prusik) into competition with a wide host of other options that are more likely to be preferable.  It all depends on the application obviously.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2010, 06:15:41 AM by knot4u »

knot4u

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Re: Improving the humble cow hitch
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2010, 05:57:33 PM »
To address jamming issues, I tested a Slipped Bull.  On the positive side, the Slipped Bull (each variation) works well to address jamming issues, and it's a compact knot.

On the negative side, the other limitations with the Bull are also present in the Slipped Bull.  The Slipped Bull must be flush against the object to work properly, or else the knot capsizes and does not hold securely.  For example, the Slipped Bull works well with relatively small round objects, but does not work well with large square objects.  In contrast, a Round Turn Plus Slipped Buntline holds securely with a wide variety of object shapes and sizes.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2010, 06:13:02 PM by knot4u »