Author Topic: Quiz. Name (of) this bend !  (Read 10150 times)

xarax

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Quiz. Name (of) this bend !
« on: November 17, 2010, 08:43:41 PM »
0
« Last Edit: December 23, 2010, 04:42:26 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

Jacon

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Re: Quiz. Name (of) this bend !
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2010, 09:56:43 PM »
I've seen it called the Vice Versa, though I know it has other names.  One of my favorites. 

Sweeney

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Re: Quiz. Name (of) this bend !
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2010, 10:18:26 PM »
Oddly enough I tied one about half an hour ago (fiddling with cord whilst watching TV), though it's not a bend I use normally. It's possible to tie as a loop but hardly easy and to me not worth the effort of remembering.

Barry

Jacon

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Re: Quiz. Name (of) this bend !
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2010, 10:55:38 PM »
Does anyone have pictures of how to tie the single/double Harness Bend offset?  I don't own/can't really afford any of the many lovely knot books I wished I owned.

[Inkanyezi] gone

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Re: Quiz. Name (of) this bend !
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2010, 11:53:53 PM »
The double harness bend, as presented by Toss as Benson bend starts with a half-knot, and one of the ends takes a half turn more around the SP of the other, image 1.

Then both ends are tucked together through the eye in the center, image 2.

And, as mentioned, it is not an offset knot.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 11:54:40 PM by Inkanyezi »
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Jacon

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Re: Quiz. Name (of) this bend !
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2010, 03:26:12 AM »
Thanks, much appreciated.

Sweeney

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Re: Quiz. Name (of) this bend !
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2010, 09:55:29 AM »

  But surely you remember the Single and Double Harness bend...Then, the only thing you have to do is to " tuck the working ends through the end loops parallel to their own standing parts...". I think that many, most of the other bends are more difficult to remember, isnt it that so ?

I can tie the bend quite easily but the loop is nothing like the same process - I do look it up occasionally and tie it but I cannot remember the sequence (and really have no use for it so don't try too hard!).

Barry

[Inkanyezi] gone

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Re: Quiz. Name (of) this bend !
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2010, 10:03:08 AM »
Jacon, mind that the tuck that I show for the Harness Bend gives the result shown as the finished knot in the book by Brion Toss. However, his tying method gives another variant of the knot, where ends are tucked differently, each end closer to its own loop. When tucked in that way the ends are crossed if they are tucked back along the standing parts and can form the Vice Versa. If you tuck the ends back along the standing parts in this variant, it will not become the Vice Versa, but a square knot.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 10:13:47 AM by Inkanyezi »
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knot4u

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Re: Quiz. Name (of) this bend !
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2010, 12:48:19 PM »
Can someone discuss the knots' characteristics, testing results or real world applications?  I've read this thread and the link, which includes a discussion about the knots' beauty and alleged ease of tying.  Also, Dick Clements briefly talks about a "strong suspicion" of strength, which I don't really consider to be useful information.  At this point, they're decorative knots to me.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 01:02:52 PM by knot4u »

[Inkanyezi] gone

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Re: Quiz. Name (of) this bend !
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2010, 06:01:15 PM »
They do work well as bends, and one may consider them decorative to a larger degree than practical. But as they are indeed practical as well, I don't put them in the "decorative" category, but they are functional knots, even if I wouldn't use them on a daily basis.

There is also another Double Harness bend, ABoK #1420, with the ends tucked from different directions, where they exit somewhat like the Zeppelin or Hunter's.

And if they are strong? Wouldn't bother me a lot; just like any other knot I suppose they weaken the rope.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 06:06:28 PM by Inkanyezi »
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knot4u

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Re: Quiz. Name (of) this bend !
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2010, 06:26:50 PM »
I wasn't looking for a discussion of strength specifically.  What I cited above was just about the only discussion I found related to knot characteristics, and it wasn't really so.  Look, there is probably an infinite number of bends.  As someone who's interested in practical use of knots, I am looking first for knot characteristics and later for knot beauty.  I don't have time to test all the knots that people post.  So, if a knot is posted, then I'd like to see at least a little bit about some of the following:

-test results
-security
-strength
-propensity to jam
-real use, not theoretical use

Another option is to request for help on figuring out the knot characteristics for practical applications.  These are my personal preferences.  Others may not agree.  That's fine, but you'd be wrong.  :P
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 06:35:35 PM by knot4u »

Jacon

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Re: Quiz. Name (of) this bend !
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2010, 06:55:18 PM »
Budworth claims this is an extremely secure bend, especially for slippery materials.  I have also found this to be true.  I know of no data on its strength, but the curves it forces into the line are fairly shallow, much like a Flemish bend, so I imagine it's pretty strong. 

Sweeney

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Re: Quiz. Name (of) this bend !
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2010, 07:12:51 PM »
I have some kernmantel rope - a braided bright orange polyethylene (polythene) sheath and what I think is a polypropylene core that was given to me by a builder. It is very stiff - a bowline simply falls apart while you watch - and although a Zeppelin Bend holds well, if the load is removed it will loosen overnight (though reapplying load tightens it). The stuff is also exceptionally slippery (electrical tape to temporarily seal the end simply falls off) but the Vice Versa holds well and because of its multiple tucks does not tend to unravel by itself. This is perhaps the only material I have come across where I would consider using the Vice Versa but only if I needed to untie it.  The bend I prefer is the Double Fisherman's/Grinner and as the rope cost me nothing I don't mind chopping a bit off (that is if I ever find a use for it! Barrier rope maybe?).

Barry

Jacon

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Re: Quiz. Name (of) this bend !
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2010, 12:18:24 AM »
Yes, I was talking about the Vice Versa/Reever, not the Double Harness. 

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Quiz. Name (of) this bend !
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2010, 06:49:50 PM »
Yes, I was talking about the Vice Versa/Reever, not the Double Harness. 

Jacon, no one has yet corrected you here --which is worrisome, for a body
wanting to make itself the authority on knotting--,
but Vice Versa /= Reever !  ["/=" = "NOT equal" (per Ada)]
IF the the four ends of these knots are not visible (and there are many
presentations of knots that obscure this aspect), then the forms appear equal;
but the loading of the former (V.V.) is asymmetric unlike that for the latter.
(And one can thus see V.V. as an extension of the Sheet Bend
--which I surmise is how Harry Asher came to it.)

In testing reported in their 1928 Alpine Club report, Wright & Magowan found
the Reever to be among their strongest knots (IRRC); that would be in
the hemp/<other natural fibre?> rope of their day (and in small diameter
for easy testing, not in the size used for mountaineering).

A simple step beyond the Reever is the Double Reever, which is
a candidate for substituting (note distinction vs. "replacing") for the Grapevine
beloved by rockclimbers --just a matter of which way the tails head for their exit!

--dl*
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