Author Topic: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?  (Read 21230 times)

Midlar

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Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2010, 04:31:41 AM »
see section 4-24, three loop bowline: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-97-61/ch4.htm#fig4-24

It's bowline on a bight tied the same way a standard, single loop, bowline, which allows it to be tied around an endless rail.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 04:33:34 AM by Midlar »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2010, 05:03:49 AM »
...  I have not found a knot specifically described for the use listed in the subject.

But knots are like tools, and one should learn to adapt them to situations.
One cannot expect that there is some index for all rope probems that indicates
the "correct" knot(s) to use.

In the example that you give, there are conditions that should concern
you more than seeming to have an excess of rope.
(True knoTyers do not admit to that possibility!   ;D  )

I'd wonder about the stability of hitches to these rails, concerned that
if they slide from one point to another it could adversely affect handling
of the ATVs --that suggests some sort of friction hitch mechanism in
the solution.  Beyond that, as Roo alludes to, one must guard against
rope rupture and violent snap-back (!!).  Thus, I like Sweeney's advice
to make use of that extra rope, not see it as surplus --double it.

But, back a more idealized version of the rope problem you want us
to solve, I'd just tie off with some wraps and a Half-hitch or two, putting
in a Slip knot stopper to secure that, and tossing the rest of the rope onto
/into the hauling ATV (or whichever was at this tying point --it could go
the other way sometime).  Or tie a Clove Hitch with a bight of the long
end, put in a Slip knot stopper, and be done with it.

Or one could tie one's preferred (knot looking for a purpose!) eye knot
with a long enough eye to tie that off with a hitch (Anchor Bend, say,
in the eye/doubled rope).  Or one could just take the rope (bight) from
a Butterfly's tail (other SPart) around the rail and tie it off with a Reverse
Sheet bend (or regular) to the eye knot's eye.


--dl*
====

ps: Thanks for that URLink
 www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-97-61/ch4.htm#fig4-24

I hope that many here can pick out its errors.  Nice images for the Fig.8 Bend,
and rather uncommon loading for it, IMO.

knot4u

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Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2010, 05:26:47 AM »
For the Bowline on a bight, I would add a Yosemite finish.

HOW would you do that?! ???

Quote
That would do three things:  take up more rope, take the working end outside of the loop (desirable here), ...

Huh?  What is this "taking the tail outside of the loop" ?
(A Bowline on a Bight doesn't have any tail in any loop (eye).)

Somehow I think you're talking about a different knot than what
is commonly referred to by that name.

--dl*
====

It's the Triple Bowline (aka, Three Loop Bowline):
http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_TripleLoops.htm#TripleBowline
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-97-61/ch4.htm#fig4-24

HOWEVER, that name may be improper here because we're NOT using 3 loops.  The third loop is the tail.  Take that tail (third loop) and make a Yosemite finish.  That knot inefficiently consumes a lot of rope, and that's GOOD for the problem here.  ;)
« Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 10:33:00 AM by knot4u »

DerekSmith

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Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2010, 11:30:07 AM »
Take the rope from your friend, pass it twice around your ATV rail and hand it back to him so that he can take up the slack and tie it again to his ATV rail.

You now have the strongest connection known to man on your vehicle and it cannot jam or become hard to remove, while your friend has all the knots his end and starts to think he should perhaps look into this knot tying milarky.  You have also connected the vehicles with two strands of rope, thereby reducing the strain on each knot your friend ties.

Derek

knot4u

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Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2010, 10:21:39 PM »
Take the rope from your friend, pass it twice around your ATV rail and hand it back to him so that he can take up the slack and tie it again to his ATV rail.

You now have the strongest connection known to man on your vehicle and it cannot jam or become hard to remove, while your friend has all the knots his end and starts to think he should perhaps look into this knot tying milarky.  You have also connected the vehicles with two strands of rope, thereby reducing the strain on each knot your friend ties.

Derek

OK, except I trust myself to tie the knots.  So, I'd tell my friend to make round turns around his ATV rail and then to hand me the ends.  ;)
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 05:11:42 AM by knot4u »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2010, 05:40:48 AM »
It's the Triple Bowline (aka, Three Loop Bowline):

HOWEVER, that name may be improper here because we're NOT using 3 loops.

 ???

Consider the name (and associated object) "Double Bowline",
which is long established (in Ashley & Day), and corresponds to
the Double Sheet Bend ; now, how does eye count figure here?
(It is a conflict of what to see as multiplied / repeated.)

--dl*
====

knot4u

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Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2010, 05:47:39 AM »
It's the Triple Bowline (aka, Three Loop Bowline):

HOWEVER, that name may be improper here because we're NOT using 3 loops.

 ???

Consider the name (and associated object) "Double Bowline",
which is long established (in Ashley & Day), and corresponds to
the Double Sheet Bend ; now, how does eye count figure here?
(It is a conflict of what to see as multiplied / repeated.)

--dl*
====

I didn't recall the name of the knot when I first mentioned it, but the original poster and I were communicating effectively anyway.

Now, back to the thread...
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 06:18:46 AM by knot4u »

Midlar

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Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2010, 03:46:49 PM »
OK, except I trust myself to tie the knots.  So, I'd tell my friend to make round turns around his ATV rail and then to hand me the ends.  ;)

My thoughts exactly  :)

DerekSmith

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Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2010, 07:55:02 PM »
OK, except I trust myself to tie the knots.  So, I'd tell my friend to make round turns around his ATV rail and then to hand me the ends.  ;)

My thoughts exactly  :)


So now you have two ends and you can tie whatever knot(s) your heart desires...

Derek

knot4u

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Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2010, 11:00:56 PM »
OK, except I trust myself to tie the knots.  So, I'd tell my friend to make round turns around his ATV rail and then to hand me the ends.  ;)

My thoughts exactly  :)


So now you have two ends and you can tie whatever knot(s) your heart desires...

Derek

I'd probably go with a cow hitch, instead of round turns, on the friend's side.  However, if my friend doesn't know knots, he couldn't tie the cow.

Anyway, here's what I'll say, "You know what, Joe, just relax, and I'll take care of everything."  Two guys working on one simple rope connection is counterproductive and awkward.

B.M.

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Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2010, 10:26:47 PM »
Hi- new to the forum, first post, and beginner knotter here...

Would the mooring hitch and/or tumble hitch do the trick?  I've used neither in any practical application myself, but in my playing around I've thought the mooring hitch to be one that might be more prone to capsizing, but I don't know...

I'm asking rather than suggesting, for my own education as well...

BM

knot4u

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Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2010, 11:18:08 PM »
Hi- new to the forum, first post, and beginner knotter here...

Would the mooring hitch and/or tumble hitch do the trick?  I've used neither in any practical application myself, but in my playing around I've thought the mooring hitch to be one that might be more prone to capsizing, but I don't know...

I'm asking rather than suggesting, for my own education as well...

BM

Welcome.  I personally wouldn't go with a Mooring Hitch.  That's an adjustable friction hitch.  A fixed loop or bend would provide more reliable security and peace of mind.  Also, the Mooring Hitch does capsize more readily compared to some other friction hitches.

Regarding the Tumble hitch, that's an interesting thought actually.  The Tumble hitch is a quick release "exploding" knot.  It may be desirable to have such a quick release on one of the ATV's.  For example, if one ATV begins to slip off a cliff or whatever, then you'd want to release that sucker ASAP.  You'd have to keep in mind the Tumble hitch will come completely off the rail with one yank of the working end.  Again, such behavior may be desirable depending on the situation.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 03:08:54 AM by knot4u »

Bob Thrun

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Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2010, 03:01:04 AM »
I'm sorry if my example did not make sense.  Put another way, consider that I have two endless rails (the frame of the ATVs in my example) that are 20 ft. apart, and I have 50 ft of rope.   

Going back to the original problem, I would use the three loop bowline (aka bowline WITH the bight) that was already mentioned or just tie some half hitches with the bight.  The scenario calls for something that can be done quickly.  If strength is a consideration, I would double the entire rope.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2010, 06:53:30 AM »

Would the mooring hitch and/or tumble hitch do the trick?

One should ask why you would think of those?
For they are quick-release knots, and the problem doesn't
need that.  The stability of the former should be fairly good
in much cordage, provided one sets it well.

I personally wouldn't go with a Mooring Hitch.  That's an adjustable friction hitch.  A fixed loop or bend would provide more reliable security and peace of mind.  Also, the Mooring Hitch does capsize more readily compared to some other friction hitches.

???  This use of "friction hitch" is not in keeping with common
parlance, where, e.g., the Prusik or Bachmann or Klemheist hitches
are friction hitches --holding (so far as they to) by pure friction
upon the rope, and not intertwining of parts.  Also, the adjustability
of the Mooring Hitch is more a different thing, too.

Quote
The Tumble hitch is a quick release "exploding" knot.  It may be desirable to have such a quick release on one of the ATV's.  For example, if one ATV begins to slip off a cliff or whatever, then you'd want to release that sucker ASAP.  You'd have to keep in mind the Tumble hitch will come completely off the rail with one yank of the working end.  Again, such behavior may be desirable depending on the situation.

This "slip-free" (my term) hitch doesn't come free all so easily
when under load --indeed, it might be quite hard to release.

Quote
Going back to the original problem, I would use the three loop bowline (aka bowline WITH the bight) ...

Hmmm, I think you'd actually use the latter, not the former
--by Ashley's naming, that is just 2 eyes : the single bowline's
and the bight end.  Why involve the (unloaded) tail in the
structure?  (I.e., bring the bight around the object and engage
the SPart to form the Bowline with a bight, and not hold the
long tail beside the SPart to be engaged with it.)  Except in some
regard of neatness in having the free tail depart from the knot
rather than from being lazily around the object.

--dl*
====

knot4u

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Re: Fixed loop, around an object (e.g. ring), middle of the rope. Which knot?
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2010, 08:12:09 PM »
I personally wouldn't go with a Mooring Hitch.  That's an adjustable friction hitch.  A fixed loop or bend would provide more reliable security and peace of mind.  Also, the Mooring Hitch does capsize more readily compared to some other friction hitches.

???  This use of "friction hitch" is not in keeping with common
parlance, where, e.g., the Prusik or Bachmann or Klemheist hitches
are friction hitches --holding (so far as they to) by pure friction
upon the rope, and not intertwining of parts.  Also, the adjustability
of the Mooring Hitch is more a different thing, too.

???  I don't find the Mooring Hitch to be quick release at all.  Every time I use it, it capsizes into a dressing that nearly jams.  It takes muscle and creativity to get it apart.  In fact, I'm still annoyed that the Mooring Hitch was described as quick release when I used it my first time.  Perhaps common parlance is "quick release", but that's definitely a misnomer that's being perpetuated for the sake of tradition I guess.  For my purposes, the Mooring Hitch is better described as an adjustable friction hitch.  I would use "adjustable grip hitch" to describe the Mooring Hitch, but that terminology is already taken by another knot.

This "slip-free" (my term) hitch doesn't come free all so easily
when under load --indeed, it might be quite hard to release.

???  In my experience, the Tumble Hitch has always come loose with a firm yank of the working end.  For the application at hand, the user definitely needs to be fully aware of this feature.  For the application at hand (towing an ATV), the user must account for the rope going in and out of load as the ATV is being towed.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 08:30:27 PM by knot4u »