Author Topic: Italian bowline (new knot)  (Read 11299 times)

JD~TIAT

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Re: Italian bowline (new knot)
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2010, 01:44:26 AM »
My Met reference was in response to the new knot being targeted for addition to Knotting Matters.

Thanks Joe,

We will be posting this in Knotting Matters in December for our members who do not have internet connectivity.

SR
Editor, Knotting Matters


Whether we realize it or not, having a knot featured in Knotting Matters, matters. It effectively
establishes a knot as...

* Having been published;
* Assumed to have been peer reviewed; and
* Accepted by the Guild.

It's publication further, typically, attributes the knot to a person's name.

Let us not forget the lesson of the "Hunter's Bend". Thought to have been created by Edward
Hunter in 1978, the bend was added to ABOK as the "Hunter's Bend". Later it was, regrettably,
discovered that Hunter's creation was predated by Phil D. Smith (who devised it during the Second
World War).

Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHpmwwxsjbU

Still...today, most refer to the bend as the "Hunter's Bend". Why? Because there are multiple published
references that say that's its name.

Why contribute to such (potential) confusion?

And, if we must contribute, let's not do it so casually...

JD ~ TIAT

p.s. Many of the multitude of books I own (and I own a lot - smile) site Knotting Matters as the primary
reference for established knots, John Shaw's book "The Directory of Knots" for one.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 01:55:25 AM by JD~TIAT »
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Joe McNicholas

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Re: Italian bowline (new knot)
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2010, 02:26:53 AM »
Hi! Thanks for the interest in the "fresh" knot.  I think of a bowline as a hitched loop.  Easy to tie & untie.  The Italian bowline is new but someday it maybe very popular and the question will be who discovered it, where it was first published? how it was made?

Most knots have no answers to these questions. 

How it was made: I combine two existing knots together to make a new knot. 2 figure 8's or a stevedore stopper knot and overhand knot.  - JM

JD~TIAT

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Re: Italian bowline (new knot)
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2010, 03:13:40 AM »
If you're the same Joe McNicholas who presented the "Irish Bowline"
eight years ago (published in KM 77, December 2002), who later had
their knot scrutinized by Dick Clements, who found it to merely be a
subtle variant of the Triangular Bend (ABOK #1424; KM 84, September
2004), I wish you all the luck on this "new" knot.

The "Italian Bowline" is a much better name.

JD ~ TIAT
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Joe McNicholas

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Re: Italian bowline (new knot)
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2010, 04:07:50 AM »
The Irish bowline is another knot I invented using the same technique that I used in creating the Italian bowline and the Irish hitch.
The latter is the strongest knot.   In referencing the Irish bowline please note that I did NOT present it to knotting matters I displayed it on Wikimedia commons.  Type Irish bowline on the web to see that knot. -JM

JD~TIAT

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Re: Italian bowline (new knot)
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2010, 05:21:30 AM »
The Irish Bowline Wiki was deleted on October 8, 2007 (deletion record
no longer available).

This said, ScoutWiki imported the article from Wiki prior to its deletion.

Link: http://en.scoutwiki.org/Irish_bowline

In the ScoutWiki article, which was derived from the Wiki article you
"displayed", provides Knotting Matters 77 as its sole reference.

Dick Clements makes the same reference in his comparison of the "Irish
Bowline" to the Triangle Bowline (presented in Knotting Matters 84).

Link: http://www.enm.bris.ac.uk/staff/rrc/knots/IrishBowline.pdf

JD ~ TIAT

p.s.


"The Irish bowline is another knot I invented using the same technique that I used in
creating the Italian bowline and the Irish hitch." -JM


If the technique you used to create the "Irish Bowline" and the "Italian Bowline" are
the same, why is it being re-presented here as a "new" knot under a new name?

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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Italian bowline (new knot)
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2010, 08:07:31 PM »
I think of a bowline as a hitched loop.  Easy to tie & untie.

"hitched loop" means what?  --just the "easy..." part?

For "bowline" and other such things, I think we want something
common such as structure, not tying method, as the former is
more objectively assessed and more likely determinant of behavior.

Quote
The Italian bowline is new ...

How can you determine this?  Any number of people might have
fiddled this knot at one time or another, and then dismissed it or
moved on or ... simply didn't (yet) show up to the light of greater
awareness.  I discovered SmitHunter's Bend circa 1977, well before
its publicity via The Times, but after both Edward & Phil had found
it.  We might credit Phil for the knot only because we have yet
to learn of some predecessor to him -- which is quite a different story
than claiming that none exists!  (But one wants to start somewhere.)

Quote
... but someday it maybe very popular and the question will be who discovered it, where it was first published? how it was made?

As I've indicated above, I very much doubt that this eye knot has
any good future (or past); I find little to commend it.  And, regardless,
the questions of origin remain problematic, as we have seen in other
cases.  One could state without fear of contradiction that So&so presented
this knot in this forum on this date, making no assertion about other
activities that might have occurred.

Quote
Most knots have no answers to these questions. 

Many likely have several answers as to origin (clearly not to "first",
but that aspect is of diminishing importance as one researches knots,
I think; "why" is interesting).

Quote
2 figure 8's or a stevedore stopper knot and overhand knot.  - JM

Roo questioned your "double figure 8" and I don't understand it at
all -- and we've pointed out that no actual Fig.8 exists, even once-- :
so how is it that you're seeing double here, and where is there any
Overhand knot even once?

--dl*
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knudeNoggin

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Re: Italian bowline (new knot)
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2010, 07:40:31 AM »
Welllll, now!  We add an "Italian Bowline" which isn't Italian
to an "Irish Bowline" which isn't Irish,
to the "Dutch Navy Bowline" which isn't Dutch, ...
And what is the sum of this lame name game?  Knots for Dummies ,
but someone has taken that name for a book (here are
some prime candidates).

*kN*

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Italian bowline (new knot)
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2010, 06:41:46 AM »
The Italian bowline is a new knot invented in 2003.

You know, Joe, you referred to "... , the ITALIAN bowline" in January 2002
when you wrote to Brion Toss to present the "Irish Bowline" (which can be
seen as an Eskimo Bowline with the tail tucked, btw) !  --that's a big jump
ahead of 2003.  Have you got your notes in order?  Or did you believe in
some other "Italian bowline" back then?  (or had premonitions)

And this, come 2003, was presented as "the Fig.8 Bowline".

--dl*
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Italian bowline (new knot)
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2010, 09:14:28 PM »
Whether we realize it or not, having a knot featured in Knotting Matters, matters.
It effectively establishes a knot as...

* Having been published;
* Assumed to have been peer reviewed; and
* Accepted by the Guild.

...

I should remark at the highlighted text : nothing of the sort need be the
case --as things have stood historically & now stand!  And often as not
one can read some disclaimer, but e.g. so far as I know, Owen Nuttall's
occasional presentations of claimed novelty are published w/o review.
(And they mostly do seem pretty novel, at least.)

Where the belief (from the originator, maybe inventor) is This knot
does something quite well, and I think that it might be new!?
, then
we have some pique of interest to assess both parts of the claim (of
which the latter might be trivial in confirming the former (well known)).
But too much it seems that the claim has the (real) form of "This knot
is new, and maybe someone can find a use for it",
and that puts more
work on the review with only some vague hope of reward (the use).

--dl*
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