plafond knot variation challenge

[KnotMe]

I was thinking about the plafond knot and how few variations on that theme there are (Chinese Knotting 3 has 2).  So I decided to play around a bit.  I've started a sequence of posts on my blog about the topic (http://www.knottynotions.com/dpp/extra-simple) and give you a sneak preview of the result.  What else can we as a group come up with together?  I have a couple of other ideas brewing... 

[KnotMe]

Over on Knot Heads (http://www.khww.net/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=941&pid=9164#post_9161) a respondent shared a familiar looking picture and a key phrase "tong xin zao jing" which I interpreted as "同心藻井" or "same heart plafond" which allows us to search and find:

step by step how-to: http://www.51diyshop.com/article.php?id=116

image of a 3 heart plafond (scroll down a ways): http://diy.txriver.com/dispbbs.asp?BoardID=20&replyID=32248&id=2709&star=2&skin=0

images of bracelets wiht the 2 heart plafond: http://www.cncraftinfo.com/product/product_detail-id-64049-bs-lxf_ChineseKnot.html

[Rrok007]

Well now that we know that the plafond knot can be done in two to three hearts, I suspect it won't take much to be able to make four hearts. What would be nice is to find a weaving method that forms the same shape, but allows one to go lengthwise, so as to form a belt or sash out of such a knot.

[Rrok007]

Well, I gotta ask about applying Darwinism to this chanllange? How far do we go within the definition of 'variation' before we've created a whole new knot?

Regardless as to whether it has 2 strands or a hundred, the Matthew Walker is still a Matthew Walker. However, at at least one or two additional twists to one side, and a square knot becomes a surgeon's knot. Sure it's a variation, but it's also recognized as it's own knot.

How many 'hearts' and in what configuration/shapes before we consider ourselves as having an entirely new creature?

[Sweeney]

I tend to think of complex knots such as the Plafond as "designs" rather than "knots" -  a bit like the infinite variations in the design of a knitted sweater which is still known as a sweater albeit with some pattern types having names (eg Fair isle or Aran). Whereas it can be important to identify a bend, hitch etc by name, it makes sense to have the term "Plafond" to describe a knot pattern type, rather than a specific knot, identified by some significant feature eg the number of hearts as we do with the Matthew Walker where the number of strands distinguishes different formations. Otherwise the naming of knots will get into a worse mess than it is already.

Barry

[JD~TIAT]

That is super cool Carol! 

May have to make a video for that one.

JD ~ TIAT

[KnotMe]

How far do we go within the definition of 'variation' before we've created a whole new knot?

How many 'hearts' and in what configuration/shapes before we consider ourselves as having an entirely new creature?

For me, I like to consider knot "families" based on the tying method and the appearance.

So, the Chinese button knot (2 strand diamond knot, knife lanyard, bosun's whistle, etc) using the able seaman method (http://www.chineseknotting.org/button/howto2/)  extends (theoretically) infinitely in length (http://www.chineseknotting.org/projects/button-necklace.jpg), but the 4 strand diamond knot (http://www.chineseknotting.org/projects/knotty/Y-button-stamp.jpg) looks exactly the same (if you don't look at the ends).   Then there's the one strand button knot (http://www.stellaceleste.com/htm/knots/buttonknot.htm) which is... some variety of turk's head?  I consider these all to be variations of the same knot although they all use different tying methods.

Consider the cloverleaf (flower, dragonfly, etc) knot (http://www.chineseknotting.org/flower/).  The obvious first variation is increasing the number of petals (http://www.chineseknotting.org/flower/flower8-big.jpg).  But if you were to take the basic knot and then tie a compound knot with them like the ru-yi (http://www.chineseknotting.org/flower/ruyi/ru-yi-bw.jpg) and then decide to connect them directly you get into mystic (pan chang) territory (http://www.knottynotions.com/mystic/assembly).  The 4 petal cloverleaf being very obviously the unit version of the pan chang.  Just the cartesian version of the pan chang can take almost any flat solid shape, some of which have names (like stone chime) and others not so much (I have seen someone do the map of Taiwan with a big pan chang knot) but there are also triangular variations (http://books.google.ca/books?id=bcZpZDAbsFMC&pg=PA50&lpg=PA50&dq=triangular+pan+chang+knot&source=bl&ots=yqM96zC219&sig=4io5qGb1ae-ncb32qHW2QxKGMP8&hl=en&ei=qAuZTMuOH4j6swONzYjQDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=triangular%20pan%20chang%20knot&f=false). Backing up to the cloverleaf, a little variation on the interlacing of the structural centre parts will give you the stellar (constellation) knot (http://www.chineseknotting.org/stellar/).  And that's just one structural loop variation, there are many more.

Going further afield, consider the basic square knot/macrame knot (http://www.chineseknotting.org/square/square.jpg).  Then consider the creeper knot (http://www.chineseknotting.org/square/howto-creeper/).  Then consider the plafond itself.  Variations on a theme?

Even the very basic simple/overhand knot.  Is the grinner/barrel/blood knot it's own thing?  I don't think so, but...

Hmmmm, have I gone off-topic?    I think the line between variation and own thing (at least in the decorative field, for practical there's the functionality issue) is an eye of the beholder/hand of the maker/pen of the author issue.

ps.  thanks JD.

[Rrok007]

Hehe.... was wondering if you were going to chime in on this one. Was thinking of the techniques you used in several of your recent videos to see if a method could be found to take the multiheart plafond outwards, such as to make a belt, bracelet, or choker.

[Rrok007]

How far do we go within the definition of 'variation' before we've created a whole new knot?

How many 'hearts' and in what configuration/shapes before we consider ourselves as having an entirely new creature?

For me, I like to consider knot "families" based on the tying method and the appearance.

So, the Chinese button knot (2 strand diamond knot, knife lanyard, bosun's whistle, etc) using the able seaman method (http://www.chineseknotting.org/button/howto2/)  extends (theoretically) infinitely in length (http://www.chineseknotting.org/projects/button-necklace.jpg), but the 4 strand diamond knot (http://www.chineseknotting.org/projects/knotty/Y-button-stamp.jpg) looks exactly the same (if you don't look at the ends).   Then there's the one strand button knot (http://www.stellaceleste.com/htm/knots/buttonknot.htm) which is... some variety of turk's head?  I consider these all to be variations of the same knot although they all use different tying methods.

Consider the cloverleaf (flower, dragonfly, etc) knot (http://www.chineseknotting.org/flower/).  The obvious first variation is increasing the number of petals (http://www.chineseknotting.org/flower/flower8-big.jpg).  But if you were to take the basic knot and then tie a compound knot with them like the ru-yi (http://www.chineseknotting.org/flower/ruyi/ru-yi-bw.jpg) and then decide to connect them directly you get into mystic (pan chang) territory (http://www.knottynotions.com/mystic/assembly).  The 4 petal cloverleaf being very obviously the unit version of the pan chang.  Just the cartesian version of the pan chang can take almost any flat solid shape, some of which have names (like stone chime) and others not so much (I have seen someone do the map of Taiwan with a big pan chang knot) but there are also triangular variations (http://books.google.ca/books?id=bcZpZDAbsFMC&pg=PA50&lpg=PA50&dq=triangular+pan+chang+knot&source=bl&ots=yqM96zC219&sig=4io5qGb1ae-ncb32qHW2QxKGMP8&hl=en&ei=qAuZTMuOH4j6swONzYjQDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=triangular%20pan%20chang%20knot&f=false). Backing up to the cloverleaf, a little variation on the interlacing of the structural centre parts will give you the stellar (constellation) knot (http://www.chineseknotting.org/stellar/).  And that's just one structural loop variation, there are many more.

Going further afield, consider the basic square knot/macrame knot (http://www.chineseknotting.org/square/square.jpg).  Then consider the creeper knot (http://www.chineseknotting.org/square/howto-creeper/).  Then consider the plafond itself.  Variations on a theme?

Even the very basic simple/overhand knot.  Is the grinner/barrel/blood knot it's own thing?  I don't think so, but...

Hmmmm, have I gone off-topic?    I think the line between variation and own thing (at least in the decorative field, for practical there's the functionality issue) is an eye of the beholder/hand of the maker/pen of the author issue.

ps.  thanks JD.

Cool.

[JD~TIAT]

How to Tie the Double Plafond Knot by TIAT



The following video is dedicated to a veteran, a dear friend, and a great
man. For all those who doubt good people lived in this world. One good
person did, and he passed away today. Hank Carideo will be remembered!

Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LyHkty_1Ys

JD ~ TIAT

p.s. Special thanks to "KnotMe" (Carol Wang) for posting her Double Plafond Links.

[Rrok007]

First off I wanna offer sympathies to JD, it seems Mr Carideo had some influence in your life. Hopefully that which gave his life such value will not be lost to this world, but find their way into another.

Secondly.... I have to be misunderstanding the video... because it looks like the hearts of the knot are some cross-breed involving the cobra stitch... or a combination of that and the split square-knot technique....

[Rrok007]

Okay, so I was watching JD's video again, as well as one or two of his "bar" videos and it's swirling in my brain that a way to move the plafond knot outwards along it's length lies in the weaving technique.
According to Carol, it's important to have two strands at the top, but there doesn't have to be a loop. So rather, the most important elememt is having to center strands along it's axis, with no real stress as to how those strands occur. It would also seem that any weaving pattern that can repeat a low-left, high-right diagonal is required.

There's a number of videos that show bar knot techniques that result in multiple pairs of strands. And a modification of the cobra stirch is one way of creating the needed diagonal pattern. Perhaps some crossbreed of it and the switchback weave that JD uses in his videos could be used....

That's all I got right now. Preparing for some travel over the weekend so can't think much about it. Maybe think more over the weekend...

[7times6]

Hello All,

I'd started a new topic on the Plafond Knot (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3976.0), however, think that here may be the more appropriate place to post the following:
http://bbs.zhongguojie.org/thread-1167-1-1.html

It looks like it needs to be "tied-on-the-table", rather that "in-hand".

Aided by Google Chrome and the Google Translate Extension (not an advertisement), I was able to find the above-linked line diagram of the Three "Heart" Plafond Knot or Long Plafond Knot. I hope that I didn't break any International Treaties by exporting the design.

I have to admit that in the excitement of having found these elusive instructions, I haven't tied it yet.

I'll post a picture.

Happy Tying!!

[KnotMe]

You didn't mention that you had to join the forum to see the picture.  Plus you have to give it a Chinese username.  So, that was a little tricky. 

Note: if you join using this link, I get extra points in the system.

At the top of the page a icon that looks like paper with a lock in it next to a button with this text (立即注册).  Click thru that button, then give it
1) a username (when I gave it an English one it said "User name contains the character of the shielding system" (well, in Chinese and this is the machine translation) so I made up a Chinese one which it was happy with.  English was OK with everything else)

You can get a Chinese name from here (http://www.mandarintools.com/chinesename.html or pick a few words you like and machine translate them and give that a shot.  It's a username after all, not a Real Name ^TM.

2) password
3) password again
4) email
5) it says it wants a verification code here, I thought it wanted a captcha code of some kind but didn't see one, but my account setup was accepted even though I put no code in.

There's only one form button there, it's the submit. 

I was able to see the picture right away, no email verification or welcome to the forum email... I should probably check my spam filters for a welcome email...

Here's a direct link to the image http://bbs.zhongguojie.org/data/attachment/forum/month_1010/10102900294a5715ef16d2ffb3.jpg.   I tried the link from a different browser (no cookies) and it worked.  YMMV.

[7times6]

My apologies. I should have just uploaded the image. 
...must have been the excitement factor.

Thank you for posting the instructions for obtaining a user account and for posting a direct link.


Happy Tying!