Author Topic: Can anyone name this?  (Read 10008 times)

cshaws

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Can anyone name this?
« on: August 23, 2010, 04:26:22 PM »
I just inadvertently tied this completely symmetrical bend.  Does anyone know what it is called?  Can't find it in ABoK
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 04:27:27 PM by cshaws »

knot4u

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1076
Re: Can anyone name this?
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2010, 07:13:17 PM »
I don't remember the name.  It's one of the knots you get when you tie the Zeppelin Bend wrongly.  I place it in the jamming category.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 07:21:36 PM by knot4u »

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3999
Re: Can anyone name this?
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2010, 07:20:30 PM »
I just inadvertently tied this completely symmetrical bend.  Does anyone know what it is called?  Can't find it in ABoK

Apparently one thing one might call it --surprisingly demonstrated
by one of another knot's most ardent advocates (!!)-- is the
"False Zeppelin bend" .  Amazing that Knot4U missed it.

This knot, unlike the true Rosendahl's bend, lacks good stability,
as the loops in the knot tend to pull it apart, shifting themselves into
bowline-like disposition.

--dl*
====

knot4u

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1076
Re: Can anyone name this?
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2010, 07:23:12 PM »
Amazing that Knot4U missed it.

I caught the difference right after I posted.  Were you waiting for me to post or something?  :D

Knot Head

  • Knot Head
  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 194
  • A knot is not just a knot...
Re: Can anyone name this?
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2010, 07:28:27 PM »
I think I found it. I think that is...



Brian...
Regards,
Brian Kidd

knot4u

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1076
Re: Can anyone name this?
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2010, 08:50:11 PM »
I think I found it. I think that is...

nope, not the same

cshaws

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Re: Can anyone name this?
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2010, 08:53:38 PM »
Nope -  p261 is Hunter's Bend.  That what I was trying when I came up with this neat little fella!


Knot Head

  • Knot Head
  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 194
  • A knot is not just a knot...
Re: Can anyone name this?
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2010, 09:15:52 PM »
Yep it may not be the same knot but it is the same. All he did was cross the standing parts. Too me that would be the same knot. Just a small modification. Nothing added to it, nor taken from the original knot. Seeing that he started from that knot and all.

Brian...
Regards,
Brian Kidd

knot4u

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1076
Re: Can anyone name this?
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2010, 09:18:34 PM »
Nope -  p261 is Hunter's Bend.  That what I was trying when I came up with this neat little fella!

Nothing personal, the bend you tied is not neat for me.  It jams up hard.  If you want a jamming bend, then you open the door for comparison to a lot of other bends that jam.

knot4u

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1076
Re: Can anyone name this?
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2010, 09:21:46 PM »
Yep it may not be the same knot but it is the same. All he did was cross the standing parts. Too me that would be the same knot. Just a small modification. Nothing added to it, nor taken from the original knot. Seeing that he started from that knot and all.

Brian...

 ???

It's just NOT the same knot as the Hunter's Bend, period.  It's also different from the Zeppelin Bend.  In performance, the knot in the original post is nothing like the Zeppelin Bend.  Please don't tie that knot while expecting similar performance.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 09:26:32 PM by knot4u »

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3999
Re: Can anyone name this?
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2010, 06:18:23 AM »
I just inadvertently tied this completely symmetrical bend.

I hadn't appreciated just how symmetric it is!
With the two rope pieces identified in "end-end" shorthand, respectively
A-B tied to 1-2,
A -v- 1  =  B -v- 2 ;  A -v- 2 = B -v- 1 , and all symmetric!

But it's not so stable, as I noted above.

(-;

roo

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1867
    • The Notable Knot Index
Re: Can anyone name this?
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2010, 05:03:17 PM »
 So, apparently, roo s is not right when he said :

"... I find it extraordinarily hard to botch a Rosendahl Bend and end up with something that looks like the real article while being otherwise deficient or problematic.  I seriously think it could be impossible for a novice (or perhaps anyone) to do.  Indeed most common or easy botches end up in near nothingness and couldn't reproduce the perfect and distinctive point symmetry of the Rosendahl Bend that is clearly apparent on both sides.

Give it a try.  It's a very good challenge."
(http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1885.msg12910#msg12910)

You should have quoted the evaluation of that bend later on in the same thread:

First, as we draw up this knot we notice it radically changes shape in a way that the Zeppelin does not.  Next, as this weird shift occurs the big giveaway occurs.  It sticks out like a sore thumb, quite literally.  I've never seen such a sideways bend.  "Hammerhead" comes to mind. 

We're not done.  There are more giveaways.  Not only do the front and back look different, but as we remove more slack, the free ends often start pointing in the same direction in contrast to the famous cruciform shape of the real Rosendahl bend.   In certain ropes, the impostor eventually becomes truly grotesque in shape.

If this is the best Evil Impostor candidate, then the Rosendahl bend is sitting pretty.   It is such a poor impostor, there's not much point in asking if it is even Evil (insecure or unstable).

So, I stand by my assessment.
If you wish to add a troll to your ignore list, click "Profile" then "Buddies/Ignore List".


Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3999
Re: Can anyone name this?
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2010, 08:35:17 PM »
All he did was cross the standing parts.

But THAT is about all he could do to tie an entirely different knot !  :)
If one crosses the standing parts, we get a false/pseudo Hunter bend.

There is nothing "false" about the pictured knot:  is IS SmitHunter's Bend.
Good grief, knot recognition is not a strong point of knot tyers here!

 :(

cshaws

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Re: Can anyone name this?
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2010, 02:09:52 PM »
My little knot certainly seems to have aroused a few passions  ;)  DL commented on it's symmetry (presumably after tying it) and I can't see how anyone can dispute it's symmetry once tightened (see back and front attached).  I have also had problems making it collapse - in fact it seems impossible as its symmetry means the forces are exactly the same whether you pull the standing parts or the ends. Agreed, it does jam but not impossibly so.  Anyway thanks for the input everyone.  As no real name or record of this particular configuration appears to exist I'm going to christen it the Cshaws Dubious Bend and add it to page 611 of my ABoK.

DDK

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 169
Re: Can anyone name this?
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2010, 05:13:53 AM »
All the problems of this dubious ( :)) bend stem from the fact that it lacks the full symmetry of the Zeppelin Bend

This bend is produced using non-interlocked "b" and "d" loops and for this reason has the same symmetry as the Smith/Hunter's Bend (produced using interlocked "b" and "d" loops).  This symmetry is such that R1( x, y, z ) = R2( -x, -y, z ) [ read as the section of the first rope located at point ( x, y, z ) is equivalent (twinned if you like) to the section of the second rope located at point ( -x, -y, z ) ].  The origin ( x, y, z ) = ( 0, 0, 0 ) can be taken near ( z = 0 is undefined ) the center of the bend and the z-axis is perpendicular to the plane defined by the standing parts and ends of the bend (approximately).

The aesthetically pleasing symmetry of the Zepplin Bend differs in that it has complete inversion symmetry about the center of the bend (origin), that is, R1( x, y, z ) = R2( -x, -y, -z ).  However, as far as the influence of symmetry on the properties (for example, stability) of a bend, consider that the symmetry of the unstable Thief Knot is the same as that for the Zepplin Bend.  As an interesting aside, a simple wrap and tuck of each of the working ends of the Thief Knot produces the Figure Eight Bend while maintaining this central inversion symmetry.  In like fashion, a "b" and "q" loop which has no stability whatsoever indeed has complete central inversion symmetry prior to the simple wrap and tuck which produces the Zepplin Bend.

From this perspective, it would appear to me that symmetry alone does not explain the deficiencies of the bend in question.  I might go so far as to speculate that symmetry alone cannot explain the deficiencies of any bend.

DDK
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 06:21:31 AM by AikBkj »