Author Topic: Highwayman's Hitch Improvements  (Read 33605 times)

knot4u

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Highwayman's Hitch Improvements
« on: July 29, 2010, 02:37:57 AM »
Don't worry.  I did a search.  I see that the following Highwayman's Hitch is met with disdain on this site:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highwayman%27s_hitch

I started this thread to discuss improvements.  Regarding quick release hitches, a common question is, why not just tie a Slipped Buntline or something similar?  Well, perhaps someone may want the rope to come completely off the object when the working end is pulled.  I have uses.  Let's just assume, for the sake of this thread, that quick release hitches have practical use.  By the way, if I'm looking for reliable security, then I'm not using any quick release hitch.  However, reliable security is not the purpose of these hitches.

This site offers the Tumble Hitch, which is a more secure alternative to the disdained Highwayman's Hitch:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/tumblehitch.html

For that hitch, make sure to keep working end behind the object like in the diagram.  Otherwise, if the working end works its way over the object, I have found that this hitch is no longer a quick release hitch (i.e., no longer explodes off the object when the working end is pulled).

Below is a pic of another quick release hitch that I've been using.  I've been calling this hitch the "Getaway Hitch".  I haven't seen it diagrammed anywhere on the Internet.  It may look similar to the Highwayman's Hitch, but this hitch doesn't capsize as easily as the Highwayman's Hitch.  Unlike the Highwayman's Hitch, the slipped working end on the Getaway Hitch tends to cross the knot sideways.  This sideways dressing helps to prevent capsizing.


Getaway Hitch
« Last Edit: March 08, 2011, 06:51:57 PM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Highwayman's Hitch Improvements
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2010, 04:54:48 AM »
I tied this in some small nylon rope (3/16") around a baseball bat.  It failed immediately.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 06:36:59 AM by roo »
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knot4u

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Re: Highwayman's Hitch Improvements
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2010, 05:48:27 AM »
I can't get this knot to fail if it's dressed properly.  I just tried again with that rope in the pic, as well as with some smaller nylon rope and with boot laces.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 05:58:28 AM by knot4u »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Highwayman's Hitch Improvements
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2010, 06:01:03 AM »
I use a version of this knot all the time, tying up a grocery bag
(w/handles) to stand upright in the car.  But I make the SPart's
turn around the object hug it, and then back away over the
slip-tuck -- the reverse of what you show.  (Put another way,
bring your Slip-tuck in though the nipping bight OVER-under.)

It's a light-duty knot.
I think that Roo's site shows a better one for heavier use,
which is a simple variation on the treacherous Highwayman's
Hitch.


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roo

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Re: Highwayman's Hitch Improvements
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2010, 06:36:12 AM »
 I just tried again with that rope in the pic, as well as with some smaller nylon rope and with boot laces.
What was the diameter of the hitching object?
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knot4u

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Re: Highwayman's Hitch Improvements
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2010, 06:08:35 PM »
I've tied the Getaway Hitch on various sized object.  For larger diameters, the knot must be dressed with more care because there is a higher risk of failure.  For proper dressing, see the video in the original post.

I generally like the Getaway Hitch better than the Tumble Hitch.  The Tumble Hitch holds tight only if there is tension on the line.  Without tension on the line, the hitch tends to loosen.  Plus, the slip on the working end is dangerously close to coming out of the nipping portion, particularly because the knot goes in and out of being tight.  When the slip does come out of the nipping portion, the hitch capsizes into another knot that's not totally failed, but has properties that are not all that desirable either.  These problems are exacerbated on poles of relatively large diameter.

===

EDIT:
Oops, all along, I was using this tying this incorrect method that's actually not the Tumble Hitch:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/
I had downloaded that hitch to my phone and assumed it was the same as this:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/tumblehitch.html
That's the real Tumble Hitch.  The Tumble Hitch performs well enough for being an exploding hitch, and I was in error.

« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 10:18:12 PM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Highwayman's Hitch Improvements
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2010, 07:04:18 PM »
I've tied the Getaway Hitch on various sized object.  For larger diameters, the knot must be dressed with more care because there is a higher risk of failure.
Even when meticulously dressed, I find it failing.  The situation just gets worse when the tyer is in a hurry or when the nature of the rope in question prevents optimal dressing.
Quote
The Tumble Hitch holds tight only if there is tension on the line.  Without tension on the line, the hitch tends to loosen.
Loose relative to what?  It seems to hold its form just fine without tension.
Quote
Plus, the slip on the working end is dangerously close to coming out of the nipping portion, particularly because the knot goes in and out of being tight.
Yet the final bight doesn't come out, despite your feelings of danger.  Maybe you'd feel better if you made a bigger bight loop.
Quote
When the slip loop does come out of the nipping portion, the hitch capsizes into another knot that's not totally failed, but has properties that are not all that desirable either.
No, if the final bight of the Tumble Hitch comes out, the hitch disappears.
Quote
These problems are exacerbated on poles of relatively large diameter.
The reality is that on large diameter objects, the Tumble Hitch holds just fine, while the Getaway Hitch fails.

Please, get two large but equal diameter pipes, one smaller diameter rope, and tie a Getaway Hitch on one end of the rope, and a Tumble Hitch on the other.  Pull on the two pipes.  Rotate the two pipes relative to each other.  Bounce on them with intermittent loading.  Report your results.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 07:14:36 PM by roo »
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Highwayman's Hitch Improvements
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2010, 07:27:24 PM »
I've tied the Getaway Hitch on various sized object.  For larger diameters, the knot must be dressed with more care because there is a higher risk of failure.

Anyway, I generally like the Getaway Hitch better than the Tumble Hitch.  The Tumble Hitch holds tight only if there is tension on the line.

...
 These problems are exacerbated on poles of relatively large diameter.

Let's just agree on the last, highlighted observation -- relatively large
diameter objects require special precautions (which to my mind go
beyond attention to setting:  to additional contstucts, such as a 2nd
slip-tuck).  So, I won't further much the discussions of which knot
might perform better/etc. under these conditions, but prefer to
either avoid them or to build some further structure onto them
so as to be sure.  (It is possible that a High.H. can capsize --i.e.,
pull through its slip-tuck (as the full load is put upon this qua
toggle) and then lock upon a long slip-bight.  Harry Asher
presented some spar hitch that I surmise he discovered by such
High.H. failure).)

Quote
Pull on the two pipes.  Rotate the two pipes relative to each other.  Bounce on them with intermittent loading.  Report your results.
Oh, wait, don't forget the elephants (or at least large livestock) !


When I tie my version of the OP's knot, I envision a coin slot defined
by the two legs of the bight being put around some object, and the
*coin* being the bight-end which is inserted between them --and,
as I remarked in distinguishing my version, the leg leading to the
SPart will be that turning against/closer-to the object.  I keep the
legs closer together than what you have shown (possibly wider for
clarity of illustration), and the nipping bight (that "coin") lies in
a plane perpendicular to all planes tangent to the object (whereas
in the OP's case, the plane including the slip-tuck is a tangents).

I've tried the variation where the slip-tuck's path turns the opposite
direction, i.e. first going over the nip-bight and all the way around
the SPart and then is tucked out --thinking that in this roundabout
way one was building better stability in the structure-- ; but this
variation seems less good.

As for what Roo has named "Tumble", which I believe (not looking)
is a simple variation to High.H. I suggested, that seems to me more
durable than you credit it; but one must take care in the conditions,
esp. relative diameters.

Taking the tail of any of these, and making a further slip-tuck through
the bight-end of the first, can give additional stablity --and require
two slips to release.

 - - - - - - - - -

So, where will such "Slip-Free" hitches (also eye-knots) find value
in application?  (My tying upright a grocery bag in the car is a sort of
"eh, okay" need -- and an issue here is that one can't readily tie-tensioned
except by anticipating sag and sort of hoisting the bag higher.)

Cavers have used a slip-free knot called the Macrame' hitch(knot),
though it seems that usage isn't all so much, and there are some
mechanical devices I think designed for the same function.
It is a treacherous, two-faced issue to have a structure that allows
rather easy release (and this is needed, when pulling from maybe
30metres distant over a semi-vertical surface!), yet must not
release
while one is being supported (on rappel) by the line!?

One tactic is to build a multiple-release structure -- i.e., one that
requires multiple releases, such that a(n accidental) initial release
will not collapse it; another might be to have the structure lock
when loaded, except that the mere suspension of 30m of rope
imparts some load.


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roo

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Re: Highwayman's Hitch Improvements
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2010, 07:59:12 PM »
  It's not hard for that nipping portion to raise up a bit and slide up and over the slip.  When that happens, the Tumble Hitch capsizes into another knot. 
This confirms my suspicion that you are tying the Tumble Hitch incorrectly.  The portion that is holding onto the final draw loop tends to pull the draw loop down into the hitching object.
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roo

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Re: Highwayman's Hitch Improvements
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2010, 08:56:07 PM »
Have a good day.  :)
You too.  

In addition to re-checking the Tumble Hitch diagram, check also when you're looking at the final product that:

1.  The first-formed bight is atop the second-formed bight.

2.  The last-formed bight (the draw loop) goes through the second-formed bight, but not the first-formed bight.


P.S.  I'm guessing that you may be switching around the very first step's tuck (referring to the diagram on the Tumble Hitch page).
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/tumblehitch.html
« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 09:16:04 PM by roo »
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roo

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Re: Highwayman's Hitch Improvements
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2010, 09:27:09 PM »
Oops, all along, I was using this tying this bad method that you have on your site:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/

I had downloaded that hitch to my phone and assumed it was the same as this:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/tumblehitch.html

You should go ahead and clearly label that other page as being the problematic knot.  I'll edit my posts above.

The real Tumble Hitch performs well.

I wonder if you were mixing methods from those two hitches.  No matter.   I'm surprised you even found that artisitic entry page.  It's kind of an Easter Egg page that maybe gets one hit a week.  
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knot4u

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Re: Highwayman's Hitch Improvements
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2010, 09:29:03 PM »
I wonder if you were mixing methods from those two hitches.  No matter.   I'm surprised you even found that artisitic entry page.  It's kind of an Easter Egg page that maybe gets one hit a week.  

You link it in some thread talking about the Highwayman Hitch.

roo

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Re: Highwayman's Hitch Improvements
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2010, 09:30:09 PM »
I wonder if you were mixing methods from those two hitches.  No matter.   I'm surprised you even found that artisitic entry page.  It's kind of an Easter Egg page that maybe gets one hit a week.  

You link it in some thread talking about the Highwayman Hitch.
Ah, it's probably an old thread from back when a few people were batting around alternative ideas.
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roo

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Re: Highwayman's Hitch Improvements
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2010, 10:54:16 PM »
Knot4U,

Just curious:  Do you ever use a Halter Hitch for a slip-free hitch on the bight?

See last diagram here:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/haltersiberian.html

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knot4u

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Re: Highwayman's Hitch Improvements
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2010, 11:26:49 PM »
Knot4U,

Just curious:  Do you ever use a Halter Hitch for a slip-free hitch on the bight?

See last diagram here:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/haltersiberian.html

No, that's the first time I've seen that knot.  I'll have to check it out.

By the way, these exploding hitches (Getaway and Tumble) are only for some rare circumstances, and I have had a need for exploding hitch only once.  Compared to a Slipped Buntline, Siberian or Halter, the exploding hitches leave a lot to be desired.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 11:35:18 PM by knot4u »