Author Topic: Highwayman's Hitch Improvements  (Read 27898 times)

roo

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Re: Highwayman's Hitch Improvements
« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2010, 06:44:30 AM »
And it's a poor one, for an obvious reason:  the release line runs
around the object to slip-tuck -- that puts friction against it.
But this may be fine for quite a number of circumstances.  For example, if the draw loop line is pulled when tension is relieved from the standing part, the hitch may roll around and allow direct release with the draw loop line no longer around the object, assuming release doesn't occur sooner.  

Even with the Tumble Hitch, enough tension in the standing part may very well prevent the functioning of the draw loop until this tension is substantially reduced.  And this will vary based on where the draw loop is placed during dressing and initial loading.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 07:07:52 AM by roo »
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knot4u

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Re: Highwayman's Hitch Improvements
« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2010, 06:02:30 PM »
And it's a poor one, for an obvious reason:  the release line runs
around the object to slip-tuck -- that puts friction against it.

It's not obvious to me, and I still don't understand what you mean after tying the "Exploding Halter" several times and after sleeping on what you said.  I'm not sure if you're tying the same knot I'm tying.

Instead of the slip-tuck of this knot, make that structure a
framing loop to surround the initial loop, and then from
the haul-side form the slip-tuck and put it through.

If you could provide a diagram for your improvement, that would be useful.  That is, if you really think your improvement is good for others to know...
« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 06:08:57 PM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Highwayman's Hitch Improvements
« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2010, 07:33:24 PM »
I'm doing that to keep the working end in place.  I don't like how the working end must be wrapped around the object perfectly in order for the Halter Hitch on the bight to remain an exploding hitch.
Hmmm.  I'm not sure I follow you here.  Are you talking about situations where you have end access to the hitching object?
Since knot4u is keeping quiet on this point, I can only assume that he means that he's worried about the draw loop line falling off the end of a horizontal object with end access, since this could not happen with a vertical post or with an object without end access, such as the rung of a ladder.

This seems like a remote concern.  If the line can fall off so easily, then the bight that remains after untying the hitch could also be coaxed off in most situations.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 07:35:24 PM by roo »
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knot4u

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Re: Highwayman's Hitch Improvements
« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2010, 08:20:14 PM »
I'm doing that to keep the working end in place.  I don't like how the working end must be wrapped around the object perfectly in order for the Halter Hitch on the bight to remain an exploding hitch.
Hmmm.  I'm not sure I follow you here.  Are you talking about situations where you have end access to the hitching object?
Since knot4u is keeping quiet on this point, I can only assume that he means that he's worried about the draw loop line falling off the end of a horizontal object with end access, since this could not happen with a vertical post or with an object without end access, such as the rung of a ladder.

This seems like a remote concern.  If the line can fall off so easily, then the bight that remains after untying the hitch could also be coaxed off in most situations.

The thing about talking about knots is that people are better off talking these issues in person.  I suspect that's part of the reason this site is not all that active.  Knot tying is naturally a hands-on and visual discipline.

It's a really simple issue that I brought up (working end not staying there), and it's quite easy to happen with the Halter Hitch on the bight (in the diagram that I posted).  It's a little frustrating trying to go back and forth.  I say it's a problem when I know it is.  You say it's a remote problem.  I can only conclude that we're talking about different issues because if I showed you in person, you would see instantly how the issue could play out in many different scenarios.

roo

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Re: Highwayman's Hitch Improvements
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2010, 08:56:09 PM »
  I can only conclude that we're talking about different issues because if I showed you in person, you would see instantly how the issue could play out in many different scenarios.
If what I mentioned wasn't the issue, then did you mean that you have the line belonging to the draw loop so short (like in the image you modified) that you are having problems keeping  it in place?

If so, this seems even more irrelevant, as if you're that close to the end of the rope at the hitching object, then there is no need for such a slip-free system where nothing is left around the object.   You could just pull a few inches of rope until you run out of rope.

Please, do try to describe in words or images what your concern is. :)
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knot4u

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Re: Highwayman's Hitch Improvements
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2010, 11:41:13 PM »
 I can only conclude that we're talking about different issues because if I showed you in person, you would see instantly how the issue could play out in many different scenarios.
If what I mentioned wasn't the issue, then did you mean that you have the line belonging to the draw loop so short (like in the image you modified) that you are having problems keeping  it in place?

If so, this seems even more irrelevant, as if you're that close to the end of the rope at the hitching object, then there is no need for such a slip-free system where nothing is left around the object.   You could just pull a few inches of rope until you run out of rope.

Please, do try to describe in words or images what your concern is. :)

I'll explain by comparison.  In a dressed Getaway Hitch (original post), the working end just hangs there.  If you pull the working end and disassemble the knot, the whole rope comes completely off the object.  Life is good.

In contrast, in a dressed Halter Hitch on the Bight (my version of your diagram), the working end makes a wrap around the object and THEN hangs.  If, instead, you were to take that working end and toss it back around the object, you end up with a regular Halter Hitch and thus NOT an exploding knot.  It's far too easy for somebody or something to throw the working end over the object in such a manner, thinking that the hitch would be neater, simpler or whatever that way.

Accordingly, I came up with the "Exploding Halter Hitch" (explanation above), which effectively keeps the working end wrapped once around the object.  In the Exploding Halter Hitch, the dressed knot rests in its simplest form.  Likewise, in the Tumble Hitch, the hitch is resting in its simplest form with the working end hanging behind the object.  In the Halter Hitch on the Bight (my version of your diagram), the dressed knot APPEARS to be NOT resting in its simplest form.  Unfortunately, if other people or other things are around, it's far too easy to turn the Halter on the Bight (my version of your diagram) into a regular Halter Hitch and, thus, a non-exploding knot.  The point of this thread is to discuss exploding knots (or Highwayman-type knots).
« Last Edit: August 01, 2010, 12:06:18 AM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Highwayman's Hitch Improvements
« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2010, 02:04:09 AM »
 It's far too easy for somebody or something to throw the working end over the object in such a manner, thinking that the hitch would be neater, simpler or whatever that way.
I think I understand what you're saying, and my previous post suffices to address this.  

The point of these type of hitches is to tie and completely release them when the free end is inconveniently far away.  If you can throw the free end/tip over the hitching object so easily, then a more standard hitch is no longer a problem.

Also, a Tumble-like Hitch is often made with the intent of full and quick release from a distance.  So if the free end/tip is right at the hitch, this specialized design once again becomes pointless.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2010, 03:49:28 AM by roo »
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knot4u

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Re: Highwayman's Hitch Improvements
« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2010, 05:19:39 AM »
The point of these type of hitches is to tie and completely release them when the free end is inconveniently far away.  If you can throw the free end/tip over the hitching object so easily, then a more standard hitch is no longer a problem.

I can imagine situations where you just need a quick release, like the example I have above:  You're tugging something non-critical on a boat, and you may want the ability to get the rope away from your boat instantly if there is some sort of problem that pops up.  A few Youtube videos note this application.  There are other applications as well.

Basically, every new feature that a particular knot presents, there is going to be at least one application out there that makes that knot useful.  Consider the Slippery Eight for example.  One could get by without this knot, but the added feature of easy adjustment makes the Slippery Eight more desirable in certain niche applications.

If we're at a level of criticizing a hitch for apparent lack of application, then I'm quite satisfied that the Exploding Halter is an acceptable hitch for my library.  :)

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Highwayman's Hitch Improvements
« Reply #38 on: August 02, 2010, 06:21:49 AM »
Knot4U, regarding the improvement I specified above for this latest
slip-free structure, what I'm saying is that at the point where the
toggle /"slip-tuck" is inserted in the above hitch, instead use
that part of material to make a loop around the nip-loop, and use
a piece of the tail/release-line from the loading side of the object
to form the toggle.  Re the "loop around ...", make sure its oriented
such that it's not a somewhat-gripping Bowlinesque/Sheepshank-esque
Half-hitch (i.e., have the crossing reversed), or that could hang up
and frustrate release (just as a Sheepshank holds sans toggle).

The key point is that --as presented above (and at Roo's site)--
the release line takes a hit going around the object before it
delivers force to the slip-tuck/toggle.

I can imagine situations where you just need a quick release, like the example I have above:
You're tugging something non-critical on a boat, and you may want the ability to get the rope
away from your boat instantly if there is some sort of problem that pops up.

And I think those who believe in slip-tucks should go out and actually
try this supposed hauling with quick release with serious loads -- you'll
find things nowhere near so quick (or even releasing)!  And esp. to the
point above, with the release line taking friction from the object.  It takes
some careful figuring out to build a quick-release that can work for the
situation you hypothesize with a load needing to be freed --one needs
to get much tension taken off of the slip-tuck so that it can be pulled out.
That's not all so easy (or, at least, in looking for such a hitch, I wasn't so
successful in several attempts).

--dl*
====

roo

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Re: Highwayman's Hitch Improvements
« Reply #39 on: August 02, 2010, 08:14:13 PM »
I was playing with a variation of the Halter Hitch applied on the bight (encompassing an extra piece of line), and after things settled, the same core mechanism seen in the Tumble Hitch emerged.   It's not worth diagramming, but what a small world.

Mostly with these variations, problems abound.  When you try to solve one issue (capsizing, excess friction, keeping the two rope parts straight & untangled, hitch failure, etc.), at least one equal or worse issue arises.
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