Author Topic: Lobster buoy loop.  (Read 10886 times)

xarax

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Lobster buoy loop.
« on: July 13, 2010, 05:03:32 PM »
0
« Last Edit: December 23, 2010, 03:17:53 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

roo

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Re: Lobster buoy loop.
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2010, 05:11:09 PM »
I think I've already voiced some of my concerns about this loop and its brethren, but now I have a new concern.  There is already a Lobster Buoy knotform (a hitch):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobster_buoy_hitch
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roo

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Re: Lobster buoy loop.
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2010, 05:35:19 PM »
  My dear roo, that is precicely why I called it so ! It looks like the lobster buoy hitch,
I'm not seeing this.

Quote
and holds/jams as the lobster buoy hitch as well !
It jams, huh?  I'll pass.

Quote
It is a simple, easy to tie
Again, I'm not seeing this.  It looks nearly impossible to tie without a diagram, and nearly impossible to check, and very easy to botch.  It's so random looking, that many would not detect if it shifted into another form during tying, which, unfortunately, is easy to do with this shifty character.

One shifted form is caused by pulling a little on the first leg of the loop during tying.  One collar sinks into the knot, and allows the knot form to pop apart in some cases if some loading tries to pull the legs in opposite directions.  This form is also at risk for allowing the standing part to straighten out, consuming the rope tail in the process, and allowing the loop to shrink.



« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 07:57:33 PM by roo »
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knot4u

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Re: Lobster buoy loop.
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2010, 07:59:35 PM »
I revisited this loop.  I didn't like it too much the first you posted it.  However, when I dress the final tuck more like a bowline, I like this knot better.  Unlike your pic, I don't overlap the final tuck.  If you dress the knot like I described, then you still have technically the same knot.

By the way, a common rule of dressing is to use the simplest form possible.  In your pic, the extra overlap of the working end appears to be unnecessary complexity.  Is there a reason for that overlap?

Again, I like this knot when the working end is dressed more like a bowline at the final tuck.  When dressed properly, there are some opposing forces in the knot that prevent a full seize up.  Thus, I placed this knot in the non-jamming camp.

Advantages:
-No pre-knot
-Non-jamming
-Standing end does not pull on a 1-diameter turn
-More secure than Bowline (maybe)
-Relatively easy to tie (e.g., easier than Zeppelin Loop)

Disadvantages:
-No known history
-More difficult to tie than Bowline
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 09:47:27 PM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Lobster buoy loop.
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2010, 09:57:32 PM »
easier than Zeppelin Loop
:o
The Zeppelin Loop has the b&q method (and alternate follow-the-leader method).  Loop1 has....?  

Take a month-long break from tying or thinking about Loop1.  Then will you remember how the initial pretzel shape goes?  Will you remember the general working end path through that pretzel?  Will you remember the over-and-under sequence for that path?  Will you remember what the dangerous shifted form looks like?

« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 10:13:39 PM by roo »
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roo

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Re: Lobster buoy loop.
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2010, 10:16:14 PM »
I don t know!
Then it sounds like an excellent and worthwhile test for you to try.  Start today.  I've done the same test with every knot I've known on a much longer basis than one month (with the possible exception of shoe tying).

For me, I estimate a week of fasting would be too long to go for Loop1.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 10:25:23 PM by roo »
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knot4u

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Re: Lobster buoy loop.
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2010, 10:19:47 PM »
easier than Zeppelin Loop
:o
The Zeppelin Loop has the b&q method (and alternate follow-the-leader method).  Loop1 has....?  

Take a month-long break from tying or thinking about Loop1.  Then will you remember how the initial pretzel shape goes?  Will you remember the general working end path through that pretzel?  Will you remember the over-and-under sequence for that path?  Will you remember what the dangerous shifted form looks like?

Roo, you should use your knots knowledge for good.  Sometimes I think you're intentionally trying to be negative.  As you know the Zeppelin Loop/Bend have nifty tying methods due to many people staring at the knots for a total of many hours.  This Lobster Buoy Loop is brand new.  I'm sure there are nifty tying methods if people spent time on it.  If you're hanging on to the easy/difficulty in tying in order to criticize this knot, then I think you're grasping for air.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 10:23:21 PM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Lobster buoy loop.
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2010, 10:22:07 PM »
 Sometimes I think you're intentionally trying to be negative.
I'm not trying to be negative, I'm trying to be thorough.  But if you want me to refrain from giving a serious assessment of knots in the future, let me know, and I'll try to refrain.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 10:25:42 PM by roo »
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knot4u

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Re: Lobster buoy loop.
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2010, 10:26:27 PM »
  Sometimes I think you're intentionally trying to be negative. 
I'm not trying to be negative, I'm trying to be thorough.  But if you want me to refrain from giving a serious assessment of knots if the future, let me know, and I'll try to refrain.

A reasonable person who is being reasonably thorough would agree with what I posted above.  That is, easier tying methods emerge over time.

roo

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Re: Lobster buoy loop.
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2010, 10:30:52 PM »
A reasonable person who is being reasonably thorough would agree with what I posted above.  That is, easier tying methods emerge over time.
That may happen, but that's not the case as it stands today.

If you really feel that the loop has merit, that should cause you to work on finding that method.  I just happen not to share that motivation, based on the properties I've observed so far.
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knot4u

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Re: Lobster buoy loop.
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2010, 10:35:58 PM »
Backing up to the original premise, I personally don't think this Lobster Buoy Loop is hard to tie.  I think it's easier than the Zeppelin Loop but more difficult than the Bowline.  I have only tied this Lobster Buoy Loop about 10 times, whereas I've tied the Zeppelin Loop probably about 200 times.

knot4u

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Re: Lobster buoy loop.
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2010, 10:40:55 PM »
For an easy tying method, all I have to do is remember "fake overhand coming towards me."  The rest is natural.  If I stare at it long enough, then I'm sure I could find even easier methods.  I'm not sure why the tying ease/difficulty is even much of an issue.

roo

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Re: Lobster buoy loop.
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2010, 10:42:06 PM »
Backing up to the original premise, I personally don't think this Lobster Buoy Loop is hard to tie.
Will you be joining Xarax in the one-month mental fast?
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roo

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Re: Lobster buoy loop.
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2010, 11:52:09 PM »
 ...not so easy to remember how to tie it. ( The Carrick bend, for example..)
This may not be the best example.

You have to remember diagonal loading.  Then, either of the final shapes goes over-under-over-under (etc.) in perfect undulation.  The symmetric pattern is hard to miss.

I don't use the Carrick, but it's not because it's hard to remember. 



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