Author Topic: Interlocking knots  (Read 42435 times)

SS369

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1843
Re: Interlocking knots
« Reply #45 on: January 25, 2011, 07:01:21 PM »
I am finding that when tying the clove version one of the outer most bights (going around the standing part) pulls loose moving the nipped working end loose when loading. Even when I dress it tightly the same happens as the two standing parts straighten.

The cow version seems to be a little more tolerant of this phenomena.
Another aspect to the cow version is that the load to the line looks to be mostly imparted on the central coils, not so much to the entry points of the standing ends.

I am still only applying what I can using the sling pulled by hand and foot method.

Anyone else experience this?

SS

xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
Re: Interlocking knots
« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2011, 07:12:27 PM »
   SS369, which one of the two versions are you referring to ? They look quite the same, but they are loaded differently...
This is not a knot.

SS369

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1843
Re: Interlocking knots
« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2011, 07:44:37 PM »
Looking back at this thread I only find one version with pictures that show different views of the same knot and unloaded.
Hard to answer your question.

The version(?) I tied is  if you tie two separate clove hitches and merge them into each other's center.

I'll have to take and share a picture later if time allows.

SS

DDK

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 130
Re: Interlocking knots
« Reply #48 on: January 25, 2011, 07:50:39 PM »
 With my climbing kernmantle ropes, the "interlocked cow hitches" bend takes this asymmetric form too many times, to allow me characterize the symmetric form as "nearly self-dressing ! But I start from two loose interlocked cow hitches, because this is the most natural and easily memorizable way to tie this bend, I believe, although not the faster one, of course. The "interlocked clove hitches" bend does not suffer from this problem so much.    

One can tie interlocked cow hitches in four different forms, i.e. distinct bends (excluding right or left-handedness).  Two of these bends has rotational (Smith/Hunter's-like) symmetry and the other two do not.  The Carrick Bend leads to a Cow Hitch Bend which has rotational symmetry.  Possibly, the behavior seen is due to starting with a bend which is not rotationally symmetric before tightening.  I could also see how, for example, a stiff rope might require much more care in the dressing of this or any bend.

DDK

xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
Re: Interlocking knots
« Reply #49 on: January 25, 2011, 09:03:47 PM »
One can tie interlocked cow hitches in four different forms, i.e. distinct bends (excluding right or left-handedness).  
 
   True, but only the most symmetric forms are interesting, I suppose, because the two links are loaded in the same way, as they should, if we want to have evenly distributed tension forces on them. ( I reckon that the two most symmetric knot forms would be probably safer, as bends, than the other two, but this is only a vague hypothesis...) I think that, as regards those two most symmetric forms, the precise form they take when  they are loaded has to do with the -relative- positions of the standing parts of the two links. When the standing parts are as shown in the first attached picture, the bend that comes out is mainly the normal, symmetric form, where both the two cow hitches have their usual shape ( shown in the first picture, as symmetric A form). When the standing parts are as shown in the second attached picture, the bend that comes out has one or two "B" shaped cow hitches (shown in the second picture, as B form). In the other two, less symmetric cases, we get the mixed results of the first and second picture of reply 41.
   I think that most people would prefer the A form, and would tend to believe that this bend would be safer than the other. I, too, prefer the aspect of the A form, but I am not sure about its better safety characteristics as a bend, relatively to the B form...
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 09:52:10 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
Re: Interlocking knots
« Reply #50 on: January 25, 2011, 09:43:42 PM »
  I only find one version...
   The version (?) I tied is if you tie two separate clove hitches and merge them into each other's center.
   SS
 
   The picture of the reply #51 shows two slightly different "interlocked clove hitches" bends (1). When we tie a normal clove hitch around a pole, we can tie it in two mirror symmetric ways. The riding turn is not exactly "vertical", i.e. it is not perpendicular to the pole s axis. It is tilted to one side, if we tie it the one way, or to the other, if we tie it the other way. Now, when we tie two clove hitches around each other, the relative orientations of their riding turns produce the one, or the other, of the two "interlocked clove hitches" bends, as shown in the picture. Look at the first picture : The white rope links are identically tilted clove hitches, in both bends. (This is evident in the identical orientation of the white rope riding turns (10-4 o clock), shown in the second picture). But the orange/red rope links are slightly different, the tilting of the riding turns of each one of them relatively to the riding turn of the white rope, is different. In this first picture, the orange/red riding turn is tilted counter-clockwise (11-5 o clock), in the upper/left bend, and clockwise (1-7 o clock), in the lower/right bend.
   I hope I have described the difference of the two variations in an intelligible way !  :)
  
1.http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1919.msg16425#msg16425
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 09:46:05 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

SS369

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1843
Re: Interlocking knots
« Reply #51 on: January 26, 2011, 12:56:06 AM »
Here is a photo to gander at.
It shows the clove bend and the cow bend. The arrow indicates where the knot loosens under pull whereas the cow did not.

SS

xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
Re: Interlocking knots
« Reply #52 on: January 26, 2011, 01:30:43 PM »
It shows the clove bend and the cow bend.

  Unfortunately, there is not one, the, cow bend, neither one, the, clove bend !  :)
Regarding the clove bend, your bend in the previous post is only one of the four possible, or one of the two possible most symmetric such bends. It is the one shown in the first picture of reply #50. There is also the less common - symmetric nevertheless - version shown in the second picture of reply #50, which forms "B figure" shaped clove hitches. There are also two other, less symmetric versions, which form mixed results, as the one shown in the two first pictures of reply #41.
   With the clove hitch(es), we have a similar situation. I have presented two "interlocked clove hitches" bends, in post # 38, (1), where I presented this type of bend.
In the attached pictures, in two posts (because there is still a limit of four attached pictures in each post...), I post the detailed succession of tying this bend (in particular, the one shown in the upper/left part of the first picture), because it seems to me that it can be tied in ways that can lead to the problems you have mentioned in your post. The "interlocked clove hitches" bend does have problems, that is for sure, as I have attempted to explain in reply # 41, but I do not think that a properly tied "clove bend" suffers from the problem you mention. Of course, I may be mistaken, because those "simple" hitches/bends are not SO simple, after all !  :)

1). http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1919.msg16425#msg16425
    
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 01:38:55 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
"Clove bend(s)"
« Reply #53 on: January 26, 2011, 01:32:40 PM »
"Clove bend(s)"
This is not a knot.

SS369

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1843
Re: Interlocking knots
« Reply #54 on: January 26, 2011, 04:42:18 PM »
Good day Xarax,

Don't get too upset with me for my liberty-taken naming. LOL

Something that stands out in the pictures you've added (thank you) is that the "clove bend" assembles at approx. right angles and so when loaded it would appear, as in the photo of mine to stress and move the crossing of the SP where I indicated.
Maybe I will try another orientation of the the two cloves to see if that can help.

"The" cow bend seems to not suffer from this SP crossing stress phenomena. Or if it does it does so to both sides relatively equal.

SS

xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
Re: Interlocking knots
« Reply #55 on: January 26, 2011, 06:36:28 PM »
...the "clove bend" assembles at approx. right angles

  I would say, at exactly right angles !  :) Now, if you tighten this bend after this right angles-initial loose state, you get a bend that does not presents the problem you mention.
  See the attached pictures, where the "clove bend" is shown tightened and loaded, and its working ends aligned. See how they exit the knot, and how the tails exit the knot.
   The "clove bend" name is fine !  :) Or we can name it i-clove bend (instead of the full "interlocked clove hitches bend"), if this name is not under some company s copyright !  :)
This is not a knot.

SS369

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1843
Re: Interlocking knots
« Reply #56 on: January 26, 2011, 08:44:06 PM »
I've retied it a couple of times and I believe that my first go is different than what you are displaying. My second, etc. go at it yields something different yet again. ;-0
One immediate difference I see is that I have the SP and WE parts crossing outside of the central area as in how a Carrick bend does.
Yours cross inside as in the "cow" version or re-tucked interlocking overhands more so.

Here's a picture of what I have tied.

SS

xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
Re: Interlocking knots
« Reply #57 on: January 26, 2011, 10:33:42 PM »
   Yes, I see your attitude, which leads to bends similar to the bend on picture of your reply #52.
   My purpose was to tie a i-clove bend as compact as possible. Of course, this has its shortcomings - the "close form" bends that are tied that way are jamming, and are jamming veeery tightly, while this may not be so if you tie the more "open form" bends you have been tying...
   Go back to my pictures, especially those where I tie the one clove hitch after the other, around the glass tube, and then the two together, around each other. That way we get the more tightly tied i-clove bend, and I think that we can really distinguish that way by the standing ends that exit the knot s nub at right angles, as you have mentioned. ( Notice the glass tube, that was rotated at right angles, from the one step to the other ). When we do not have standing ends at right angles, we have differently tied, "open" form i-clove bends.  
This is not a knot.

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3828
Re: Interlocking knots (The two 88 bends)
« Reply #58 on: January 27, 2011, 06:40:12 AM »
But, because this bend turned out to be the most tightly jamming knot I know,(!), I renamed it "The Oyster", for obvious reasons...

After tying this and so getting to see it from other perspectives,
I came to realize that I'd seen something like this some time ago,
back when I was looking for improvements to the "EDK" (offset
water knot
) for an abseil-ropes joint --and offset bend.  Look at
this form either end, and you'll see a quite appealing structure
for being loaded by that end's two exiting parts (qua SParts),
where each of the orange/white ropes will lie on the inside &
also the outside of the other --neither can be pried out around
its opposite.

However, even my ARJ knot --where the tails exited in another
manner, at right angles to the offset body-- was not easy to untie.
And I came to realizing that symmetry is not a winning characteristic
for ARJ knots, as the joined materials are often *asymmetric*, of
different sizes & nature.  I called my offset bend the "Beehive"
for this classical domed hive look.

--dl*
====

SaltyCracker

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 70
Re: Interlocking knots
« Reply #59 on: January 28, 2011, 03:22:47 AM »
Finished version of Interlocking knot shown in steps in the post at the link below. Kinda like the vice-versa (spelling correction 2011-Jan-28) but more versatile. Can be tied as a bend or fixed loop. It's ABoK 1031 tied as a bend.

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2792.msg16568#msg16568

Holds in about anything; Low profile; not too hard to tie; seems to have a high breaking strength; fairly easy to un-tie; ends lie parallel to standing parts. I've switched from bowline to using this in kevlar speargun line-shaft line.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 12:05:12 AM by SaltyCracker »