Author Topic: Interlocking knots  (Read 41220 times)

SS369

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Re: Interlocking knots
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2011, 05:11:15 AM »
The knot below the kerchief woggle looks to be a two strand re-tucked Mathew Walker lanyard knot. I think.
Basically the same thing as what is in my photo, just with the working ends oriented in the same direction if I am correct.
We're on the same page in thoughts.

SS

xarax

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Re: Interlocking knots
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2011, 10:49:34 AM »
  As for the initial, single/simple true lovers bend, because it is so symmetric and simple, it is very sensitive to the initial form(s) of the loose knot we use before we tighten it . See the picturess of two possibly usefull representations of the initial stage, together with the one cited at Wikipedia at :  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:True_Lover%27s_knot-0.jpg
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 03:41:05 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

SaltyCracker

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Re: Interlocking knots
« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2011, 11:32:05 AM »
The knot below the kerchief woggle looks to be a two strand re-tucked Mathew Walker lanyard knot. I think.
Basically the same thing as what is in my photo, just with the working ends oriented in the same direction if I am correct.
We're on the same page in thoughts.

SS

Yep, that's what it appears to be. ABoK #776 with an additional 1/2 wrap in the forming.

I think that this is a bit off topic so let's end or move to another thread.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 11:42:32 AM by SaltyCracker »

SS369

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Re: Interlocking knots
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2011, 03:42:36 PM »
Anyone else vote to move this?
Or does it still fit in regards to the discussion of interlocking knots?

The versions we've been discussing prior have been with a "bend" type orientation.

SS

xarax

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Interlocked trefoil bend
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2011, 05:29:57 PM »
  The re-tucking knots party is not over yet.  :)
  A re-tucked overhand knot is an "open" trefoil knot, a knot with two ends. If we join those two ends (again), we get our original trefoil knot back.
   Here is a close relative to the re-tucked true lovers bend presented by SS369. It is a point symmetric bend, that is probably jamming, or something next to it, when it is heavy loaded.
   I call it "interlocked trefoil bend", in the meaning of an "open trefoil" knot, i.e. a re-tucked overhand knot, mentioned above.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 02:04:43 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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Re: Interlocking knots
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2011, 05:34:49 PM »
   If we remove the one link, the re-tucked overhand knot tied with the orange/red rope in the pictures, without even touching the other link, see what we are left with : The "open trefoil" knot, the re-tucked overhand knot I was talkng about in the previous post.
   The two twin links are identical, and are placed point-symmetrically into the knot s nub.
This is not a knot.

SaltyCracker

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Re: Interlocking knots
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2011, 05:48:30 PM »
Anyone else vote to move this?
Or does it still fit in regards to the discussion of interlocking knots?

The versions we've been discussing prior have been with a "bend" type orientation.

SS

The suggestion to move to another Topic wasn't clear. The intent was to refer only to the subject of the knot in Norman Rockwell's "We Have a Job to Do" cover on a 1944 Boy's Life magazine. A separate Topic on that has been started. Look forward to your inputs & pardon the confusion.


« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 11:57:18 PM by SaltyCracker »

xarax

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Re: Interlocking knots
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2011, 12:58:22 AM »
   Two interlocked hitches always form interesting bends, and here is one of the most simple out of them : Two interlocked Clove hitches. Depending upon the precise orientation of the two riding turns, relatively to each other, we get two forms of interlocked Clove hitch bends, presented in the attached pictures. The one with the standing ends departing from different points out of the knot s nub is more interesting, (and more symmetric) from the other, as a bend.  
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 01:18:10 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

SS369

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Re: Interlocking knots
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2011, 02:29:15 AM »
Clean looking bend Xarax.
I'll try it out .

How do you think the knot will perform under load? The pictures don't show a loaded orientation.

I have just tried tying to interlocked cow hitches using 3/16" pull start cord (tough stuff) and applied foot and hand strain (made a loop) to it and I like it.
It holds very well and is as easy to untie as the Rosendahl bend.
Camera battery dead. ;-(

Someone else try it please.

SS

[Inkanyezi] gone

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Re: Interlocking knots
« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2011, 09:24:35 AM »
Camera battery dead. ;-(

Someone else try it please.
Something like this then. It is made by first tying a Carrick Bend, then reeving ends through the collars along the standing parts.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 09:28:38 AM by Inkanyezi »
All images and text of mine published on the IGKT site is licensed according to a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License.
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/

xarax

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Re: Interlocking knots
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2011, 11:20:08 AM »
   The first time it had happened to me to tie the two interlocked cow hitches, was when I  posted my "best 4 ends bend" problem. I thought that it was a good bend, in the case that 3 or even 4 of the ends of a bend are loaded. Dan Lehman, in a constructive reply, proposed the water bend, and I think that this is the best solution of this problem to this day.
  There are two problems with this bend, that I have encounter, in a more or less pronounced way, in many other symmetric "lovers" bends, that is, bends made by two identical links.
   The first problem is what I call "symmetry breaking" of a "love" bend, when the bend is loaded. The two links are tightened differently, depending upon the particular position of the standing ends and/or tails in the particular dressing, so, at the end, we come up with a bend with identical topologically, but not geometrically, links. The two Cow hitches bend is very sensitive to this effect. (The Zeppelin X bend was also sensitive, but much less). In the attached pictures one can see a very common asymmetrically loaded form of this bend. The two coils of the one Cow hitch / link (orange/red rope) remain on two parallel planes, while those of the other (white rope) form a flat B figure.  
   The second problem is more serious, I think. When the first link is locked around the other, the second run the danger to remain loose and untightened, so the bend does not close in a tight, compact form. We have to carefully dress the bend, to make the two links to lock simultaneously, to escape from this danger. That problem was not present in the simpler two interlocked Clove hitches bend.
   In the case of the Cow hitch bend, I have tried to address the first problem in a way, but I fall into a bigger second problem !  :) Namely, I tied an interlocked bull hitches bend, shown in the attached pictures. One escapes from the Scylla to fall onto the Charybdis here ! The two links of the two interlocked bull hitches bend is very difficult to be forced to lock simultaneously, as this is a more complex bend than the simple interlocked Cow hitches one.
   I think that the interlocked bull hitch bend might be a solution for bends tied with ropes of hugely different diameters, the problem knot4u has posed some time ago. But the solution of Inkanyezi, with the Zeppelin bend where the line of the smaller diameter rope is doubled, is also very satisfactory, and it is a benchmark against which the other solutions of this problem should be examined.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 11:25:18 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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Interlocked bull hitches bend
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2011, 11:41:56 AM »
Interlocked bull hitches bend (side view)
This is not a knot.

SS369

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Re: Interlocking knots
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2011, 04:04:22 PM »
Thanks for the picture Inkanyezi. ;-) Yep that is it.
Interesting way you mention to tie it, I'll try that way too. I just tied it by cow hitch method.

Thanks Xarax for the Bull hitch version. I do wonder how it would perform under high loading. Would the rope/cord creep and unwind to the point of disassembly?

I sure wish we, the IGKT, had a test cell at our disposal!

These hitch/bends do need some added attention in the tightening and dressing department, but if the virtues are great enough then that is what it needs for use. There are plenty of other practical knots that need this as well.

SS

DDK

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Re: Interlocking knots
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2011, 04:57:30 PM »
  The first time it had happened to me to tie the two interlocked cow hitches, was when I  posted my "best 4 ends bend" problem. I thought that it was a good bend, in the case that 3 or even 4 of the ends of a bend are loaded. . . .

  There are two problems with this bend, that I have encounter, in a more or less pronounced way, in many other symmetric "lovers" bends, that is, bends made by two identical links.
   The first problem is what I call "symmetry breaking" of a "love" bend, when the bend is loaded. The two links are tightened differently, depending upon the particular position of the standing ends and/or tails in the particular dressing, so, at the end, we come up with a bend with identical topologically, but not geometrically, links. The two Cow hitches bend is very sensitive to this effect. . . .
 
   The second problem is more serious, I think. When the first link is locked around the other, the second run the danger to remain loose and untightened, so the bend does not close in a tight, compact form. We have to carefully dress the bend, to make the two links to lock simultaneously, to escape from this danger. That problem was not present in the simpler two interlocked Clove hitches bend.

When working with the Carrick Bend version of the Cow Hitch Bend as described above by Inkanyezi, I find that some minor additional dressing of the bend is possible after moderate to heavy loading, but otherwise, the bend is nearly self-dressing.

DDK

xarax

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Re: Interlocking knots
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2011, 06:39:49 PM »
  With my climbing kernmantle ropes, the "interlocked cow hitches" bend takes this asymmetric form too many times, to allow me characterize the symmetric form as "nearly self-dressing ! But I start from two loose interlocked cow hitches, because this is the most natural and easily memorizable way to tie this bend, I believe, although not the faster one, of course. The "interlocked clove hitches" bend does not suffer from this problem so much.    
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 06:44:57 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.