Author Topic: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines  (Read 30693 times)

roo

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Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2010, 10:43:39 PM »
Here's the main article that made me start this thread.  This guy claims the Double Sheet Bend is useful in monofilaments, super lines, fly line, and also maintains 90% to 95% of strength.  That's incredible.

Conflicting results from more detailed data in different material should at least raise serious doubts:

http://www.caves.org/section/vertical/nh/50/knotrope.html
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knot4u

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Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2010, 11:05:22 PM »
Here's the main article that made me start this thread.  This guy claims the Double Sheet Bend is useful in monofilaments, super lines, fly line, and also maintains 90% to 95% of strength.  That's incredible.

Conflicting results from more detailed data in different material should at least raise serious doubts:

http://www.caves.org/section/vertical/nh/50/knotrope.html

Thanks

It's too bad they didn't provide test results for the Overhand Bend, Figure Eight Bend and some other common bends for climbing/rappelling.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 11:08:02 PM by knot4u »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2010, 11:29:59 PM »
This thread has worsened from silly to seriously confused and misleading:
the notion of using Rosendahl's Zeppelin bend to join fishing lines is
ridiculous, on its face -- such lines want knots that jam secure and are strong;
I doubt Rosendahl's is going to do well at jamming or strength, here.

Now this chatter about "overhand knot" --something or other, but
so far an ambiguous name-- and Fisherman's knots being in the same
"family":  what ... ?!

The Offset Ring Bend (to use a name that shouldn't be ambiguous:
a Ring Bend loaded in the offset manner) can indeed both "slip" in the
sense of capsizing, aka "rolling"/"inverting"/"flyping", and jam (and so
produce a break, and strength data).  But this end-2-end joint is used
in circumstances where the forces that would lead to either behavior
are not going to be encountered (assuming that the knot is well tied).
Beyond this, there are some simple ways to make the knot secure
against flyping, such as putting a stopper in both tails or the proper one.

Quote
I'm finding that the properties of fishing Line are vastly different than the properties of rope.

How are you "finding" this?
(One could say the same thing about various fishing lines,
and various ropes and various tapes.)

Quote
As to the Zeppelin Bend, I just have not read anything about that knot slipping.
// On the other hand, I have NEVER heard about the Zeppelin Bend slipping.  So, I don't know how it's possible to get more secure than "never".

Do you know how it's possible to never read anything?
-- to have virtually never used something (and so never
writing about it)?!  Have you read reports of a Double Bowline slipping?
-- of Ashley's bends #1408, 1425, 1425a, 1452, or the Blood knot slipping?!
-- or even of the Fig.8 bend slipping?

I'll surmise that in HMPE (Dyneema/Spectra) rope that Rosendahl's bend
can slip, and will do so more than Ashley's #1408, 1425, 1425a, & 1452,
but this is surmise at this point.  As for the Grapevine bend (aka Dbl.Fish),
that has slipped in sheathed hi-mod cordage (apparently in test labs of
makers for HMPE, and in one Tom Moyer test w/Technora) --the core
pulling through--, and so a Double Grapevine (Trpl.Fish) is recommended.

Quote
A trucker tying down a load for his truck (lots of shaking) will have different considerations than a sailor connecting lines for an anchor (mostly load and less shaking).

I'm not sure that this is the right picture here:  a trucker's load will be set
in sufficient tension to hold it secure, devoid of movement; an anchor
rode will ebb & flow with variations of water flow, at times --not really
anything like shaking, though, but at least a change of tension.  Maybe
vibration (under tension) is something the truck line will endure,
which might figure on the holding of a friction knot.
Shaking, per se, is something the bend in a flag-pole line will
get, slapped against the pole (w/some tension).


Quote
This guy claims the Double Sheet Bend is useful in monofilaments, super lines, fly line, and also maintains 90% to 95% of strength.  That's incredible.

Indeed, "incredible" -- or "incredi-bull____" !    :P

One must wonder where this guy came up with such nonsense.
And one can point out to some rather simple reference to this
site w/o looking around; where one could also find this gem of
reiterated assertion (it is near verbatim of the '78? press item):
Quote
Tests conducted by the English showed the Hunter's Bend not to be as strong as the Blood Knot, however stronger than the fisherman's and sheet bends.
Now, work all that into the tiny span between 95% and 100%!
(I see his animation of SmitHunter's bend botches the first Overhand.)

In stark contrast to this misinformation, one will usually find the
strength of the Sheet Bend put at about 55%; in testing of 3 types
--7mm accessory, 10.5mm dynamic, & 12.7mm "static"-- of nylon
kernmantle ropes, Dave Richards found the Sheet & Dbl.S. to slip,
with strengths IIRC in the 50s% range.

Beyond that, though, the site's knot-tying advice seems sensible,
and I especially appreciate the urging to recycle tangled/used line
-- I have procured samples from just such a recycling bin (incl.
some Bimini Twists, for examination, and much line!).


--dl*
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knot4u

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Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2010, 11:43:18 PM »
Dan, I appreciate your knowledge and detailed response, but wow this thread has gone off track.  I think I need to go to a fishing-specific site to answer the original three questions.  It wasn't until we got off track when the thread started getting active here. I'll admit these side ventures are entirely my fault because I took the thread off track in my second post.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 11:53:54 PM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2010, 12:07:52 AM »
1.  What knot do you prefer for joining fishing lines?

2.  Can I safely use two San Diego Jam knots, or two Improved Clinch knots, etc., for joining lines like I do with a Double Uni knot?  I've searched the Internet and have only seen the Uni knot used for multiple fishing needs, such as joining lines as well as attaching lures, etc.

3.  Do you use different knots to join monofilament, braided, fluorocarbon, etc.?  Or do you use the same knot for joining all types of fishing line?

1.  Blood or various modifications of the Uni-Knot, such as:


2.  Yes.

3.  You can use the same set of knots.  If you're unsure of a knot, why not test it in the fishing line you use?
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knot4u

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Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2010, 12:52:05 AM »
Thanks Roo... I have tried out the "Double San Diego Jam" knot as a bend, but have never seen any discussion about this knot anywhere.  I figured there may have been a good reason.  I mostly see the Uni Knot and Blood Knot (or Double Improved Clinch) being discussed for multiple usages, but I see no reason why other similar knots don't receive similar attention.  By the way, my favorite fishing knot right now is the San Diego Jam.

Transminator

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Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2010, 09:27:18 AM »
Thanks Roo... I have tried out the "Double San Diego Jam" knot as a bend, but have never seen any discussion about this knot anywhere.  I figured there may have been a good reason.  I mostly see the Uni Knot and Blood Knot (or Double Improved Clinch) being discussed for multiple usages, but I see no reason why other similar knots don't receive similar attention.  By the way, my favorite fishing knot right now is the San Diego Jam.

First of all I have to agree with you about my previous remark regarding "obvious security" by just looking at a knot. That was a silly thing to do. I just felt so for the dbl sheet and the uni, but I tested them first and then thought, yes, its actually obvious when you look at them. But it can be misleading and the examples you gave are proof enough.

The site you mentioned lists the following:
Retained Breaking Strength:     90% to 95% for the (dbl) sheet bend
Retained Breaking Strength:     75% to 80% for the uni to uni

Ah ok. The dbl sheet bend goes easy on the rope, (because the rope is not so heavily bend and pinched?), but that is to no use, if the line slips, which it did in my tests.
I have yet to see the zeppelin or the uni to uni fail (line slipping) but I could imagine that the breaking strength of the rope is reduced more with the zeppelin, as the rope has several sharp turns to endure in the zeppelin bend.
Fishing line e.g. seemed to break more easily when bend with the zeppelin then with a double fisherman or uni to uni, but I still did not see it slip. For fishing line it is important though, that the line retains a good bit of breaking strength, therefore the zeppelin is out.
The knot wars tests were very convincing though, as it took a while before the uni to uni was beaten, which means first of all: it does not slip, but the breaking strenght remains considerably high. 
For fishing the dbl. sheet bend is out of the question, because it slips to easily and falls apart if there is no load on it (which is one of the advantages of it in other circumstances. The sheet bend (and dbl sheet bend) remain one of the standard knots in the German navy e.g. but I would not use it for abseiling.

I picked the uni (and the palomar) for fishing, as they are simple and very strong but I will have a look at the "new champion" the modified albright and your favorite the San Diego Jam, because I am a knot-nut and like to learn new knots.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 09:33:21 AM by Transminator »

knot4u

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Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2010, 05:38:01 PM »
OK, I change my mind about possibly using the Double Sheet Bend or the Zeppelin Bend for joining fishing lines.  However, it's not "ridiculous" or "silly" to pose the question and have the discussion.  That's why this is a discussion forum, and not a website for one-way information.  So, shame on you, Dan.  :P

The Zeppelin Bend first looked ridiculous and silly to me because sun shines through it.  But then I tested it out, and the Zeppelin Bend instantly changed my whole mindset about knots.  Recall that Ashley didn't put the Zeppelin Bend in his book.  Perhaps Ashley came across the Zeppelin Bend (before it was the Zeppelin Bend), but summarily dismissed the knot as a "ridiculous" and "silly" mistake.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 05:46:12 PM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2010, 05:49:38 PM »
The Zeppelin Bend first looked ridiculous and silly to me because sun shines through it.

Just to check:  You are firmly setting/working all bends in rope before using them, right?  I would hope that you could eliminate daylight shining through gaps in the bend in most cases.
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2010, 06:10:07 PM »
First of all I have to agree with you about my previous remark regarding "obvious security" by just looking at a knot. That was a silly thing to do. I just felt so for the dbl sheet and the uni, but I tested them first and then thought, yes, its actually obvious when you look at them. But it can be misleading and the examples you gave are proof enough.

Bah!  It should be the case that such observations can be made
with confidence in at least some occasions.  In the one at hand,
you are right in re the Sheet bend vs. many other knots.

Quote
The site you mentioned lists the following:
Retained Breaking Strength:     90% to 95% for the (dbl) sheet bend
Retained Breaking Strength:     75% to 80% for the uni to uni

Ah ok. ...

 ???  Did you not read my post, in which the claim of supposed
strength of the Sheet bend was examined?!  --nothing "ok"
about it at all:  it is QUITE contrary ALL other evidence!  AND
contradicted by other information presented (by echo) on the site.
Moreover, for anyone familiar with knots it should be strikingly dubious
(along with your correct thinking about security).


Quote
The knot wars tests were very convincing though, as it took a while before the uni to uni was beaten, ...

Do you have a URLink for these tests?
Do they show the actual tied & tested knots, so one can
see what they're testing (as opposed to some other source's take
on what the knot should be).  In the case of the Uni knot, I've
found quite clear images of the before-setting form, but that of
the set tight form is shown in only crude appearance, which
seems generally to be a sort of Multi-Strangle form,
but that implies a significant transformation from the clear form shown.

Quote
The sheet bend (and dbl sheet bend) remain one of the standard knots in the German navy e.g. but I would not use it for abseiling.

Those who might use such end-2-end knots in that case would do so
with Strangle knots tying off the ends; the main knot would be
chosen for ease of untying (and possibly for different-diameter ropes).

Quote
I picked the uni (and the palomar) for fishing, as they are simple and very strong but I will have a look at the "new champion" the modified albright and your favorite the San Diego Jam, because I am a knot-nut and like to learn new knots.

Except that in the "gel-spun" (HMPE) line, the Palomar isn't so strong;
many older knots come up short and are replaced with ones with
more turns or length or used with "double"s -- i.e., long eyes of
a (still strong) Bimini Twist.  Btw, the Palomar is presented variously
in >>three<< dressings:  that end bight left around the hook shaft,
or moved up to surround the body of the knot (specifically stated
e.g. by Lefty Kreh, noted fishing author), or pushed farther up to
surround the SPart (e.g. by Geoffrey Budworth), making the the
knot a sort of eye-secured Half-Hitch, Pile Hitch noose.

--dl*
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2010, 06:37:09 PM »
1.  What knot do you prefer for joining fishing lines?

1.  Blood or various modifications of the Uni-Knot, such as:

Have any of you actually tied a Uni-knot?  Do you have a good
idea of what that tiny squiggle shown in the cited (and every other
I've found) presentation is supposed to be -- you know, the actual
knot geometry that meets the Real World!?

For I have, and have had failure so far to achieve the form of
a (multiple-)Strangle in monofilament of moderate strength
(I'll guess 30-50#?  --maybe less; I don't have a good feel for it).
I found some thinner line and in it got the transformation I'd
expected.  Given one author's assertion that the knot can be
set tightly enough to be a fairly effective fixed eyeknot,
it must be the case that the Strangle-knot form is intended,
for simply hauling bunch of turns tight with a to-be-loaded
SPart pulling through them to the end turn couldn't be expected
to grip & hold.  Some presentations show a mid-transformation
state that is that of going to Strangle form.

But I have seen some commentary that suggests that the above
transformation isn't so readily achieved.  In my efforts (a few
attempts, though --come to think of it, dry line), I got
an Overhand twist of end & SPart at the away end and
this didn't work into and become surrounded by the multiple
wraps.

One might suspect that some different opinions/results on the
knot could arise from this difference in formation -- and the
vague imagery provided in the knot's presentation sadly does
nothing to resolve it.

Quote
Quote
2.  Can I safely use two San Diego Jam knots, or two Improved Clinch knots, etc.,
 for joining lines like I do with a Double Uni knot? ...

2.  Yes.

 ???  I'm looking at this:  www.marlinnut.com/knots/sandiego.shtml
Please show me how to ring hitches can be used reasonably
qua end-2-end joints?!  The Uni knot is well suited to abut something
under load, but I don't see the ring hitches above as being so.
(And I can see one dressing the knot so that it was only the
ring-proximate parts of these hitches that involved the other
hitch, the away parts being beyond such overlap.)

Quote
Quote
3.  Do you use different knots to join monofilament, braided, fluorocarbon, etc.?
Or do you use the same knot for joining all types of fishing line?

3.  You can use the same set of knots.  If you're unsure of a knot, why not test it in the fishing line you use?

The sources I've seen present fishing knots as often particular
to circumstances, such as line type; this is especially true for the
newer, "gel-spun" lines of HMPE, which is very slippery and
strong.  And there are special knots for joining dissimilar lines
(typically of different diameters).

--dl*
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knot4u

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Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2010, 06:43:39 PM »
The Zeppelin Bend first looked ridiculous and silly to me because sun shines through it.

Just to check:  You are firmly setting/working all bends in rope before using them, right?  I would hope that you could eliminate daylight shining through gaps in the bend in most cases.

In big thick rope, I have found that light comes through the Zeppelin Bend no matter how hard I pull.  The knot, nevertheless, still works great.

knot4u

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Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2010, 06:46:18 PM »
Dan, that's a little too verbose for me.  Did you answer the original three questions somewhere in there?  I'm not saying you must.  I'm saying I DO value your opinion, even you're kind of a dick, and I mean that in the nicest possible way.  ;)
« Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 06:47:48 PM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2010, 07:25:42 PM »
1.  What knot do you prefer for joining fishing lines?

1.  Blood or various modifications of the Uni-Knot, such as:

Have any of you actually tied a Uni-knot?
??? Yes.
Quote
 Do you have a good
idea of what that tiny squiggle shown in the cited (and every other
I've found) presentation is supposed to be -- you know, the actual
knot geometry that meets the Real World!?
I don't know what you're referring to.  It's been clear enough for me.  I'm sorry you're having problems.

Quote
Please show me how to ring hitches can be used reasonably
qua end-2-end joints?!
 The same way any hitch can be hitched to the belly of another hitch.  I'm not a regular user of the knot in question, but it certainly can be done.  It's not like the San Diego Jam Knot is tied on the bight.

Quote
The sources I've seen present fishing knots as often particular
to circumstances, such as line type; this is especially true for the
newer, "gel-spun" lines of HMPE, which is very slippery and
strong.
 
Some people may have opinions on what is best suited for a particular line, but the question was one of possibility.  And it is possible to use common angling knots among a wide spectrum of fishing line.  Some line may require more or less coils of the basic knot structure to suit friction requirements.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 08:07:25 PM by roo »
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roo

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Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2010, 07:30:02 PM »
In big thick rope, I have found that light comes through the Zeppelin Bend no matter how hard I pull.  The knot, nevertheless, still works great.
Do you also try to smash the collars tighter as you pull on the various ends of the bend?
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