Author Topic: Stevedore Bowline  (Read 6840 times)

knot4u

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Stevedore Bowline
« on: July 09, 2010, 10:30:56 PM »
This knot was inspired by JC Sampson's work with the Front-Back Bowline:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1914.0

The Bowline is based on an unfinished Slipped Overhand.  The Front-Back Bowline is based on an unfinished Slipped Figure 8.  The Stevedore Bowline (below) is based on an unfinished Slipped Stevedore.

Basically, think "Slipped Stevedore plus Bowline".  I hope the the pics are good enough because my explanation in words won't make things clearer.

Step 1:


Step 2:




Below is the knot tied with Bowline portion going the opposite way around the standing end:

Step 1:


« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 02:36:50 PM by SS369 »

roo

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Re: Stevedore Bowline
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2010, 10:39:14 PM »
And the same problem that applied in the other thread applies here -- perhaps even worse!  These twisted-hole bowlines end up reducing the clamping pressure on the U-shape part of rope, making it easier for it to slip out, especially when the legs are unevenly loaded.

Complications of the bowline ought to make things more stable and secure, not less.
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knot4u

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Re: Stevedore Bowline
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2010, 10:58:17 PM »
And the same problem that applied in the other thread applies here -- perhaps even worse!  These twisted-hole bowlines end up reducing the clamping pressure on the U-shape part of rope, making it easier for it to slip out, especially when the legs are unevenly loaded.

You're probably right!  However, this knot has not yet slipped for me when dressed properly.  Also, the properties you note are also likely to make this knot less jam-prone.

Advantages:
-no pre-knot
-even less jam-prone than Bowline
-easy to untie
-possibly more secure than Bowline (who knows?)

Disadvantage:
-no known history
« Last Edit: July 09, 2010, 11:12:57 PM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Stevedore Bowline
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2010, 11:12:56 PM »
... likely to make this knot less jam-prone.
Without agreeing or disagreeing with that reasoning, when have you had problems untying a bowline?
« Last Edit: July 09, 2010, 11:13:34 PM by roo »
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knot4u

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Re: Stevedore Bowline
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2010, 11:15:27 PM »
... likely to make this knot less jam-prone.
Without agreeing or disagreeing to that reasoning, when have you had problems untying a bowline?

Sometimes it's a little tough.

Anyway, I presented a knot.  Hopefully, people will try it out.  I personally am quite critical of knots, but I like this one.  I'm not sure if it belongs on my favorites list though.  We'll see.  By the way, I added pics to the original post.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2010, 11:18:32 PM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Stevedore Bowline
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2010, 11:23:00 PM »
  Hopefully, people will try it out. 
Aside from trying different rope types, you might also try increasing the number of twists in your Stevedore.   It may put you off of this twisted-hole bowline family. 

The ultimate extreme would be making a small Butterfly Loop as a substitute hole for your bunny to travel through.
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jcsampson

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Re: Stevedore Bowline
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2010, 12:42:04 AM »
Quote from: knot4u
"The Bowline is based on an unfinished Slipped Overhand. The Front-Back Bowline is based on an unfinished Slipped Figure 8. The Stevedore Bowline (below) is based on an unfinished Slipped Stevedore."

I admire this kind of thinking. It is precisely this kind of thinking that can lead to solutions and construction.

Unfavorably, the kinds of thinking that I most often encounter tend to foster problems and destruction, so it is very refreshing to experience finally some constructive thinking like this. I admit that I have been somewhat disappointed that the IGKT forum delivers as much destructive thinking as it does.

After I made this Stevedore Bowline, I assessed its properties and started thinking about some things that I usually wouldn't get to think about in other contexts. Then, I acted on those thoughts, in an attempt to see whether I could achieve what I wanted. The important thing is that what I wanted was instigated by this new knot. Had it not been for this new knot, my mind would have been . . . somewhat less active.

The very first time that I made this Stevedore Bowline, I may have dressed it incorrectly, because I found my working end to slip; but, the second time it did not slip. In my opinion, ALL Bowlines should be made stopper flush anyway, so that the slipping of working ends will never need to be a concern. The third time, I made it using 3/8" hollow-braid polypropylene, which is notorious for slipping, and it did not slip.

Then, I made a Front-Back Bowline, contrasted it with the Stevedore Bowline, and saw more constructive thinking! This is how great, new knots can come into existence, as well as how to learn what techniques are effective, what techniques aren't, and what techniques will give a knotter exactly what's wanted.

There are some very subtle yet powerful things waiting to be discovered; most of them are overlooked--owing to the disease of assumption, and the wrong attitudes.

Someone somewhere may view the forum, see your knot, notice something valuable about it, start using it, discover more about it, teach his son, and so on. A knot that you set forth one day may one day be solving a problem in someone's home.

JCS

jcsampson

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Re: Stevedore Bowline
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2010, 01:19:19 AM »
OK, studying your Stevedore Bowline has just paid off:

I figured out that the very thing that could make the Stevedore Bowline slip is the very thing that could make it secure. It all has to do with dressing and setting; in particular, setting.

The coils that wrap around the loop part that is opposite to the working-end loop part tend to exert a very good grip on that loop part (when the Bowline is tight). It follows, then, that if you make a point of pushing those gripping coils INTO the working-end loop part--by holding them behind your fingers and pulling out the loop part that they grip--they will, rather effectively, pinch the U shape and HOLD their position rather well (since they are gripping that loop part [over which they are wrapped] rather well). Once they are in that optimal position, pulling on the standing part will only keep them--and the Bowline--tight and secure. As if that weren't enough, the position of the standing neck has the tendency to keep pushing the coils in the right direction. Get it? (If you have questions about this, ask me.)

You've got yourself a great, new Bowline. It's so innovative, that it may take a while for folks to figure it out.

N.B: It is therefore necessary and imperative to teach this setting method along with the knot, because, like a manual transmission, the Stevedore Bowline's security is "manual," not "automatic."

JCS
« Last Edit: July 10, 2010, 01:23:55 AM by jcsampson »

knot4u

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Re: Stevedore Bowline
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2010, 01:30:56 AM »
Good points JC, I do agree with you that some aspects of knot tying may be overlooked/assumed. So, they aren't explored.  I don't expect attitudes here to be any different than attitudes in everyday life.  New ideas are always tested, or ridiculed, excessively until they're proven.

I don't have a personal attachment to any of these knots.  However, I did like the Stevedore Bowline enough to post some pics.  Maybe somebody can do something with it, maybe not.  Whichever, I appreciate the mental exercise.  I'd like to get back to approaching problems like kids do.  Kids have lots of failures and rare strokes of genius.  Most of all, they have lots of fun.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2010, 01:37:22 AM by knot4u »