Author Topic: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines  (Read 38021 times)

knot4u

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Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
« on: June 13, 2010, 04:30:05 PM »
1.  What knot do you prefer for joining fishing lines?

2.  Can I safely use two San Diego Jam knots, or two Improved Clinch knots, etc., for joining lines like I do with a Double Uni knot?  I've searched the Internet and have only seen the Uni knot used for multiple fishing needs, such as joining lines as well as attaching lures, etc.

3.  Do you use different knots to join monofilament, braided, fluorocarbon, etc.?  Or do you use the same knot for joining all types of fishing line?

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EDIT:  After some testing, I'm finding the Zeppelin Bend to be as good as, or better than, common fishing knots for bending fishing lines.  I didn't even test the Double Zeppelin Bend, which is likely to be even stronger than the Zeppelin Bend.  Also, the Zeppelin Bend jams up in monofilament.  I did not test braided or fluorocarbon. See my Replies #71, etc.
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1874.msg13148#msg13148
« Last Edit: July 11, 2010, 07:53:22 PM by knot4u »

knot4u

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Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2010, 09:39:05 PM »
Based on discussions in another thread, the Zeppelin and Double Zeppelin will be my go-to knot for joining ANY fishing line.  I'm putting the Zeppelin family over the Sheet Bend family.  If the Zeppelin family somehow fails for joining fishing line, there's always the Double Uni.

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1872.msg12788#msg12788
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 09:41:55 PM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2010, 04:35:03 AM »
Based on discussions in another thread, the Zeppelin and Double Zeppelin will be my go-to knot for joining ANY fishing line.  I'm putting the Zeppelin family over the Sheet Bend family.  If the Zeppelin family somehow fails for joining fishing line, there's always the Double Uni.

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1872.msg12788#msg12788

What do you have against standard fishing line knots for fishing line?  I assume that you're not trying to untie these knots, and you don't care much about how much line is used.  A little extra strength from the typical  fishing knots may be worth it.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2014, 09:42:32 PM by roo »
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knot4u

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Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2010, 07:46:52 AM »
Based on discussions in another thread, the Zeppelin and Double Zeppelin will be my go-to knot for joining ANY fishing line.  I'm putting the Zeppelin family over the Sheet Bend family.  If the Zeppelin family somehow fails for joining fishing line, there's always the Double Uni.

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1872.msg12788#msg12788

What do you have against standard fishing line knots for fishing line?  I assume that you're not trying to untie these knots, you don't care much about how much line is used.  A little extra strength from the typical attributes of fishing knots may be worth it.

I have nothing against them.  I'm just looking to see what people use by asking the original three questions.

I've read that the strength of the Double Uni Knot is not as high as the strength of the Double Sheet Bend (which probably has less strength than the Zeppelin Bend).  I read that on a fishing site by a fisherman who actually uses the Double Sheet Bend on fishing line.  In fishing line, strength is an important consideration.  So, I'm just looking to see people's experiences.  It looks like there aren't too many fisherman here, or if there are, then this issue is not that important to them.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 07:56:08 AM by knot4u »

Transminator

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Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2010, 08:09:51 AM »
I've read that the strength of the Double Uni Knot is not as high as the strength of the Double Sheet Bend

I wonder what the source of that statement is.
The Double Sheet Bend failed for me in several scenarios in which I expect it to hold and that was with "normal" rope. In fishing line I expect it to be
a lot worse.
The Dbl Uni Knot (and that should be obvious by just looking at the structure and the mechanism) out-performs the Dbl Sheet Bend by a mile.
I saw a broadcast called "Knot Wars" somewhere on the web in which the Uni Knot was joined winner with the Blood Knot (not the double overhand knot, which is also sometimes called blood knot) when it came to bending fishing line.
They did a good bit of testing. Different line types and many common and not so common fishing knots, several repetitions each time.
The palomar loop, btw. was the winner in the "what knot to use for attaching a fishing hook to a line" category, which was probably a big surprise not only to me.

Edit:
just browsed the web for knot wars and it seems that there is a new champion. The modified albright has beaten the uni to uni.
Nevertheless, it only proves that the uni to uni is a very strong knot and it took a while before a new champion was found and in my opinion, it is a very easy not to tie and remember.
For the average person who goes fishing only once in a while, the palomar loop and the uni knot might be all they ever need.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 10:40:09 AM by Transminator »

knot4u

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Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2010, 07:56:11 PM »
I've read that the strength of the Double Uni Knot is not as high as the strength of the Double Sheet Bend

I wonder what the source of that statement is.
The Double Sheet Bend failed for me in several scenarios in which I expect it to hold and that was with "normal" rope. In fishing line I expect it to be
a lot worse.
The Dbl Uni Knot (and that should be obvious by just looking at the structure and the mechanism) out-performs the Dbl Sheet Bend by a mile.
I saw a broadcast called "Knot Wars" somewhere on the web in which the Uni Knot was joined winner with the Blood Knot (not the double overhand knot, which is also sometimes called blood knot) when it came to bending fishing line.
They did a good bit of testing. Different line types and many common and not so common fishing knots, several repetitions each time.
The palomar loop, btw. was the winner in the "what knot to use for attaching a fishing hook to a line" category, which was probably a big surprise not only to me.

Edit:
just browsed the web for knot wars and it seems that there is a new champion. The modified albright has beaten the uni to uni.
Nevertheless, it only proves that the uni to uni is a very strong knot and it took a while before a new champion was found and in my opinion, it is a very easy not to tie and remember.
For the average person who goes fishing only once in a while, the palomar loop and the uni knot might be all they ever need.


Thank you for the info Transminator.

I'm finding that the properties of fishing Line are vastly different than the properties of rope.  In fishing line, I guess jamming is the same thing as security (?).  In rope, we know that's not true because the overhand knot is great for jamming, but it somehow also slips (insecure).

So, please be careful not to jumble up security with strength.  For fishing line, security seems to be a giving because if fishing line jams, then it's also secure.  Strength, however, is the quality around which all fishing knots seem to be judged.  As you know, strength is so important in fishing line because the line is only as strong as the best knot.

I just want to clarify something that you said.  You said, "The Dbl Uni Knot (and that should be obvious by just looking at the structure and the mechanism) out-performs the Dbl Sheet Bend by a mile."

I have to point out here that your statement may have some validity when talking about fishing lines.  However, I don't think that statement applies to rope generally at all.  Going off of pure looks, I would have guessed the Double Fisherman is substantially stronger and more secure than the Zeppelin Bend.  Also, I wouldn't have guessed the Zeppelin Bend is very secure at all, but in fact it's more secure than any other bend I know even with light coming through the Zeppelin Bend.  Again, however, I will highlight that we are talking about fishing line here.

Going back to my original point, if jamming is the same as security IN FISHING LINE, then does that knock out the Sheet Bend and the Zeppelin Bend for being good fishing knots?  Neither of these is known for jamming, which is something I do want to happen in a fishing line.

I'm just think this through.  I brought these question to this site because the fishing sites don't want to get too technical when talking about knots.  They know what works for them, and they don't really want to analyze why.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 08:01:26 PM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2010, 08:13:04 PM »
I'm finding that the properties of fishing Line are vastly different than the properties of rope.  In fishing line, I guess jamming is the same thing as security (?).  
No, it's not the same thing.  Jamming just doesn't factor in because you don't typically try to untie fishing line.  You cut it.  It's disposable.

Quote
  Also, I wouldn't have guessed the Zeppelin Bend is very secure at all, but in fact it's more secure than any other bend I know even with light coming through the Zeppelin Bend.  Again, however, I will highlight that we are talking about fishing line here.
  I don't know how a Zeppelin Bend performs in angling situations, but at least in rope, the Double Fisherman's Knot is more secure, perhaps partially due to jamming tendencies storing spring energy that prevents loosening, and partially because of the way the final change of direction of the free ends butt up against each other in the mating plane of the knot.

Usually, people don't care much about security in angling knots, because common angling knots are overkill enough not to be prone to security issues.

Quote
Going back to my original point, if jamming is the same as security IN FISHING LINE, then does that knock out the Sheet Bend and the Zeppelin Bend for being good fishing knots?  Neither of these is known for jamming, which is something I do want to happen in a fishing line.
  Even if there are no security problems in common rope knots used in fishing line, what's going to knock them out is alternative knots common to angling that have real or perceived strength advantage.  Anglers don't want the big one to get away, and their stealthy, slim line plays close to the cliff of breaking strength.


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knot4u

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Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2010, 08:20:33 PM »
Thank you for your input Roo.  I have a comment about one thing you wrote.

I don't know how a Zeppelin Bend performs in angling situations, but at least in rope, the Double Fisherman's Knot is more secure, perhaps partially due to jamming tendencies storing spring energy that prevents loosening, and partially because of the way the final change of direction of the free ends butt up against each other in the mating plane of the knot.

You may have typed that too fast for me to completely understand, or maybe I just disagree.

I've read reports from people who mountain climb about the Fisherman and the Double Fisherman.  Some climbers specifically don't like these knots because of their ability to jam and also slip (strangely) in extreme loadings.  On the other hand, I have NEVER heard about the Zeppelin Bend slipping.  So, I don't know how it's possible to get more secure than "never".
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 08:21:57 PM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2010, 08:25:56 PM »
I don't know how a Zeppelin Bend performs in angling situations, but at least in rope, the Double Fisherman's Knot is more secure, perhaps partially due to jamming tendencies storing spring energy that prevents loosening, and partially because of the way the final change of direction of the free ends butt up against each other in the mating plane of the knot.

You may have typed that too fast for me to completely understand, or maybe I just disagree.

I've read reports from people who mountain climb about the Fisherman and the Double Fisherman.  Some climbers specifically don't like these knots because of their ability to jam and also slip (strangely) in extreme loadings.  On the other hand, I have NEVER heard about the Zeppelin Bend slipping.  So, I don't know how it's possible to get more secure than "never".

Please pass along the reports of slippage (sources, links).  

There are different modes of security.  The mode that tends to affect most knots in rope is shaking while the rope is slack, causing things to spring open (especially a problem in stiff, slippery rope).

« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 08:33:42 PM by roo »
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knot4u

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Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2010, 08:34:27 PM »
I don't know how a Zeppelin Bend performs in angling situations, but at least in rope, the Double Fisherman's Knot is more secure, perhaps partially due to jamming tendencies storing spring energy that prevents loosening, and partially because of the way the final change of direction of the free ends butt up against each other in the mating plane of the knot.

You may have typed that too fast for me to completely understand, or maybe I just disagree.

I've read reports from people who mountain climb about the Fisherman and the Double Fisherman.  Some climbers specifically don't like these knots because of their ability to jam and also slip (strangely) in extreme loadings.  On the other hand, I have NEVER heard about the Zeppelin Bend slipping.  So, I don't know how it's possible to get more secure than "never".

Please pass along the reports of slippage (sources, links).  

There are different modes of security.  The mode that tends to affect most knots in rope is shaking while the rope is slack, causing things to spring open.



In that case, the word security get's rather complex.  A trucker tying down a load for his truck (lots of shaking) will have different considerations than a sailor connecting lines for an anchor (mostly load and less shaking).  I'd guess the security of the Zeppelin Bend outperforms most, or all, bends when the application is mostly load and less shaking.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 08:37:13 PM by knot4u »

knot4u

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Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2010, 08:44:00 PM »
I don't know how a Zeppelin Bend performs in angling situations, but at least in rope, the Double Fisherman's Knot is more secure, perhaps partially due to jamming tendencies storing spring energy that prevents loosening, and partially because of the way the final change of direction of the free ends butt up against each other in the mating plane of the knot.

You may have typed that too fast for me to completely understand, or maybe I just disagree.

I've read reports from people who mountain climb about the Fisherman and the Double Fisherman.  Some climbers specifically don't like these knots because of their ability to jam and also slip (strangely) in extreme loadings.  On the other hand, I have NEVER heard about the Zeppelin Bend slipping.  So, I don't know how it's possible to get more secure than "never".

Please pass along the reports of slippage (sources, links).  

This article analyzes slippage of the Overhand, the Double Overhand and the Figure 8 in extreme conditions:

http://www.needlesports.com/catalogue/content.aspx?con_id=75b7be92-45dd-474a-9229-9c9e00a60c7f

Abseiling is about as important as knots can possibly get.  Because the Fisherman and the Double Fisherman are in the same family, they too are not exempt from slipping.

As to the Zeppelin Bend, I just have not read anything about that knot slipping.  So, please provide a report there.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 08:53:52 PM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2010, 08:58:42 PM »

This article analyzes slippage of the Overhand, the Double Overhand and the Figure 8 in extreme conditions:

http://www.needlesports.com/catalogue/content.aspx?con_id=75b7be92-45dd-474a-9229-9c9e00a60c7f

Abseiling is about as important as knots can possibly get.  Because the Fisherman and the Double Fisherman are in the same family, they too are not exempt from slipping.

As to the Zeppelin Bend, I just have not read anything about that knot slipping.  So, please provide a report there.
I don't think you can extrapolate flipping in the European Death Knot to problems with the Double Fisherman.  Unless I'm missing something, the article seems to contrast the two, with the Double Fisherman being the safe "gold standard" that regrettably becomes difficult to untie:

This is against his "gold standard" of a Double Fisherman's Knot which broke the rope (at well over 1000kg) in every case, however sloppily it was tied
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 08:59:24 PM by roo »
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knot4u

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Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2010, 09:24:52 PM »
This guy thinks the Zeppelin Bend is more secure than the water knot, fisherman's knot, double fisherman's knot, carrick bend, and the rigger's or hunter's bend.

http://www.survivaltopics.com/survival/how-to-make-a-zeppelin-bend-knot/

Again, I have not heard reports about the Zeppelin Bend slipping.  I'm not saying the Zeppelin Bend doesn't slip.  I just have not read any such reports, not even from you (Roo).  So, I your statement about the Double Fisherman being more secure than the Zeppelin Bend is still unsupported by evidence.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 09:28:34 PM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2010, 09:35:29 PM »
 I just have not read any such reports, not even from you (Roo).  So, I your statement about the Double Fisherman being more secure than the Zeppelin Bend is still unsupported by evidence.

Under the vast majority of conditions, I don't expect either knot to just slip or slither (you can search this forum for teflon-coated floss knots for the exceptions).  The evidence I have of the Double Fisherman's Knot being more secure than the Zeppelin Bend is the slack shaking tests I have done in stiff, low-friction rope in which the Zeppelin Bend springs open and shakes apart before the Double Fisherman's Knot does so.

« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 09:37:35 PM by roo »
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knot4u

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Re: Fishing Knots - Joining Lines
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2010, 09:49:00 PM »
Here's the main article that made me start this thread.  This guy claims the Double Sheet Bend is useful in monofilaments, super lines, fly line, and also maintains 90% to 95% of strength.  That's incredible.

http://www.marinews.com/Double-Sheet-Bend-686.php

The same guy also claims the Uni Knot is at 75% to 80% of strength, which is great but still NOT as good as the Double Sheet Bend.

http://www.marinews.com/Double-Uni-Knot-267.php

 I just have not read any such reports, not even from you (Roo).  So, I your statement about the Double Fisherman being more secure than the Zeppelin Bend is still unsupported by evidence.

Under the vast majority of conditions, I don't expect either knot to just slip or slither (you can search this forum for teflon-coated floss knots for the exceptions).  The evidence I have of the Double Fisherman's Knot being more secure than the Zeppelin Bend is the slack shaking tests I have done in stiff, low-friction rope in which the Zeppelin Bend springs open and shakes apart before the Double Fisherman's Knot does so.

OK, fair enough, thanks
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 10:23:06 PM by knot4u »