Author Topic: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend  (Read 70643 times)

knot4u

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #45 on: June 19, 2010, 07:42:06 PM »
By the way, despite the caption on the presentation, the Zeppelin Bend may be used with dissimilar ropes.  It does far better with dissimilar ropes than the Sheet Bend, for example, which used to be often touted for being used with dissimilar ropes.

In that case, I may have to put the Zeppelin Bend over the Double Sheet Bend when joining dissimilar fishing lines (or dissimilar ropes generally).

We'll see...
« Last Edit: June 19, 2010, 07:43:15 PM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #46 on: June 19, 2010, 08:02:23 PM »
By the way, despite the caption on the presentation, the Zeppelin Bend may be used with dissimilar ropes.  It does far better with dissimilar ropes than the Sheet Bend, for example, which used to be often touted for being used with dissimilar ropes.

In that case, I may have to put the Zeppelin Bend over the Double Sheet Bend when joining dissimilar fishing lines (or dissimilar ropes generally).

We'll see...

The knots employed for fishing lines are not typically the ones used in rope.  Why not use fishing knots?
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jcsampson

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #47 on: June 20, 2010, 12:38:22 AM »
Hold on to your seat, roo: Here comes the Zeppelin Double Loop.

(I hope you don't tell me that this is the wrong thread for it.)

Following the instructions set forth in

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1872.msg12734#msg12734,

see whether you can make the Zeppelin Double Loop.

Just wrap around your post twice and make the knot itself in the same fashion as in the above instructions.

The symmetry of the Zeppelin Knot remains, but is hidden by the extra thread that is introduced into the Zeppelin structure AND by the crossing of that thread through the structure. It therefore APPEARS as though the symmetry has been destroyed. All Zeppelin properties remain, however. And get this: It's easy to untie!

I'm sure that there are those who will be utterly HORRIFIED by my tampering in this manner, and who will sling all sorts of angry comments my way. So be it.

JCS

roo

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #48 on: June 20, 2010, 01:02:57 AM »
Hold on to your seat, roo: Here comes the Zeppelin Double Loop.

(I hope you don't tell me that this is the wrong thread for it.)

Following the instructions set forth in

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1872.msg12734#msg12734,

see whether you can make the Zeppelin Double Loop.

Just wrap around your post twice and make the knot itself in the same fashion as in the above instructions.
As with most loops, there are a number of ways to make a dual-loop version.  I'm not sure if I'm clear as to which approach you are thinking of.  Does your version have loops that communicate with each other, such that expanding one shrinks the other? 

If you want to start another thread for this, you can, but as minor diversion, I don't object to the discussion in this thread either.

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jcsampson

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #49 on: June 20, 2010, 01:19:46 AM »
Unlike the loops in, say, the French Bowline, the sizes of the loops in this Zeppelin Double Loop are adjustable only when the Zeppelin structure has been loosened. Once the knot is tightened, the sizes of the loops stay put, which can be considered an advantage over the French Bowline in certain contexts.

JCS

knot4u

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #50 on: June 20, 2010, 03:59:49 AM »
Hold on to your seat, roo: Here comes the Zeppelin Double Loop.

(I hope you don't tell me that this is the wrong thread for it.)

Following the instructions set forth in

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1872.msg12734#msg12734,

see whether you can make the Zeppelin Double Loop.

Just wrap around your post twice and make the knot itself in the same fashion as in the above instructions.

The symmetry of the Zeppelin Knot remains, but is hidden by the extra thread that is introduced into the Zeppelin structure AND by the crossing of that thread through the structure. It therefore APPEARS as though the symmetry has been destroyed. All Zeppelin properties remain, however. And get this: It's easy to untie!

I'm sure that there are those who will be utterly HORRIFIED by my tampering in this manner, and who will sling all sorts of angry comments my way. So be it.

JCS

I don't see any description of a Zeppelin Double Loop there.

=====

Anyway, I do have something called Double Zeppelin Bend, and a Double Zeppelin Loop can be tied in a similar manner.

The Double Zeppelin Bend is tied basically by looping the working ends through the "69" twice instead of just once.  It's just as symmetrical and about twice as bulky as a Zeppelin Bend.  Does somebody have a diagram?  I don't feel like making a diagram because I think the Double Zeppelin Bend may very well be an unnecessarily monstrous jumble of rope.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 04:01:44 AM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #51 on: June 20, 2010, 04:05:45 AM »
So, I, personally, would be very glad if you did tell me about this other method you have found, because it is of an academic interest, and I admit that I have an academic - and not a sheer "practical" - interest on knots and knot tying.
   
I was simply referring to the follow-the-leader "alternative" method at the bottom of this page:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/zeppelinloop.html

I'm having a hard time finding many people who actually prefer it to the b&q visualization method.  I must admit that I find myself gravitating toward the b&q visualization, not only for mental expediency, but also because it seems to naturally eliminate paths of error and thereby reduce hesitation during tying.
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roo

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #52 on: June 20, 2010, 04:10:18 AM »
Anyway, I do have something called Double Zeppelin Bend,...
The Double Zeppelin Bend is tied basically by looping the working ends through the "69" twice instead of just once.
I agree that repeating the final tuck of the knot form is the best candidate for the Double Zeppelin knot forms.  This may be something that doesn't need a diagram (but I have an image on the Notable Knot Index).

PS:  If you want a comical "double" version, try making an extra coil in the b & q of the bend.  I'd never use it, but I might call it a double-wide Zeppelin bend. :D
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 04:58:33 PM by roo »
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Transminator

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #53 on: June 20, 2010, 10:30:16 AM »
Just a few things here:

By the way, despite the caption on the presentation, the Zeppelin Bend may be used with dissimilar ropes.  It does far better with dissimilar ropes than the Sheet Bend, for example, which used to be often touted for being used with dissimilar ropes.

1. I can confirm that the zeppelin bend is (in my experience and lay-man testing) very reliable for dissimilar ropes (different material and or different diameters). I tried e.g. a piece of string with a synthetic rope and I could not get it to slip, no matter how hard I pulled or how I pulled (shock-loading, steady pull). The knot distorted considerably but it did not seem to make it less secure.
The sheet bend and double sheet bend failed miserably in many of my tests, in which the zeppelin bend performed excellent.

Anyway, I do have something called Double Zeppelin Bend, and a Double Zeppelin Loop can be tied in a similar manner.

The Double Zeppelin Bend is tied basically by looping the working ends through the "69" twice instead of just once.  It's just as symmetrical and about twice as bulky as a Zeppelin Bend.  Does somebody have a diagram?  I don't feel like making a diagram because I think the Double Zeppelin Bend may very well be an unnecessarily monstrous jumble of rope.

Even though the zeppelin performs well with dissimilar ropes, to make sure it does not slip, I would tie the zeppelin bend with ropes of (considerably) different diameters as a one and a half zeppelin bend, meaning that I would thread the thinner rope twice through the eyes (instead of both), which is similar to the concept of the double sheet bend.)

2. Another way of tying a double zeppelin loop is to tie it on the bight. This results in a very bulky knot though, which uses a lot of rope. I discarded it as an option straight away for better alternatives (the KDL, dbl. bowline etc.)

But the method described by jcsampson is interesting and worth a closer evaluation. I will play around with it and compare it with other dbl loops.

Think of the method again : Eye, loop, loop, eye, tail through both eyes. It sounds simple because it is simple, and it is a most natural way of tying this end of one line loop that we conviniently call "the Zeppelin loop."

It sounds simple and is simple in concept, but I don't find it natural or simple to tie in hand at all. Maybe I have not found the knack yet. But this only confirms what jcsampson and I said before: different methods (intrinsically the same) for different people.


dmacdd

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #54 on: June 20, 2010, 03:33:17 PM »

I was simply referring to the follow-the-leader "alternative" method at the bottom of this page:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/zeppelinloop.html

I'm having a hard time finding many people who actually prefer it to the b&q visualization method.  I must admit that I find myself gravitating toward the b&q visualization, not only for mental expediency, but also because it seems to naturally eliminate paths of error and thereby reduce hesitation during tying.

But there is an alternative alternative method that avoids this dichotomy. As currently drawn, the alternative method makes b and q visualization very difficult for someone learning the method, and even for those who know the method.  Constructing the ZL by following the current drawing requires you to start with a left hand overhand knot that can only be visualized as a b viewed from behind or in a mirror.  Starting from a right hand overhand allows an easy identification of the overhand with the "finished" b of your new diagram.  Such is the method given verbally by jcsampson, which is why I was able to comprehend it immediately. I see the b and q evolving as  in your new diagram every time I tie the loop (or the bend) by the method described by jcs, which I'm sure is just the mirror image of your "alternative method".

Dan_Lehman

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #55 on: June 20, 2010, 09:03:40 PM »
Anyway, I do have something called Double Zeppelin Bend,...
The Double Zeppelin Bend is tied basically by looping the working ends through the "69" twice instead of just once.
I agree that repeating the final tuck of the knot form is the best candidate for the Double Zeppelin knot forms.  This may be something that doesn't need a diagram.

PS:  If you want a comical "double" version, try making an extra coil in the b & q of the bend.  I'd never use it, but I might call it a double-wide Zeppelin bend. :D

Here we see a difficulty with "double":  the better knot is that (and others
like it) suggested by knot4u, but the version Roo describes more suits
the term if taking the bowline/sheet-bend correspondents as guides.

As for the first, the extra diameters got by the 2nd tucking of the ends
might have some effects worth testing (strength, or ... ?).

As for Roo's suggestion, note that there's a compromise:  make just an
extra half turn, so that each rope (assuming two ropes vs. just
the ends of the same...) collars the opposite, not itself, having made
a 360- vice 180-degree turn for the nipping loops.

--dl*
====

knot4u

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #56 on: June 20, 2010, 09:35:26 PM »
1. I can confirm that the zeppelin bend is (in my experience and lay-man testing) very reliable for dissimilar ropes (different material and or different diameters). I tried e.g. a piece of string with a synthetic rope and I could not get it to slip, no matter how hard I pulled or how I pulled (shock-loading, steady pull). The knot distorted considerably but it did not seem to make it less secure.
The sheet bend and double sheet bend failed miserably in many of my tests, in which the zeppelin bend performed excellent.

I have found similar results so far.  In that case, the Double Zeppelin (as described here) will be my go-to knot for joining ANY fishing line.

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1874.0

For vastly different diameters, what do you think about tying two loops together (e.g., two Zeppelin loops)?  I know that's technically not a bend, but it'll get the job done with confidence.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 09:50:49 PM by knot4u »

jcsampson

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2010, 12:41:29 AM »
Quote from: knot4u
"I don't see any description of a Zeppelin Double Loop there."

Right. There is no description THERE; however, the operative sentence in my post is this, which occurs at some point after the link:

"Just wrap around your post twice and make the knot itself in the same fashion as in the above instructions."

The point of making the structure in that manner is to accomplish two things:

(1) To make a double Zeppelin Loop without bulking up the Zeppelin Knot too much

(2) To make a double Zeppelin Loop quickly and easily, merely by extending what has already been learned

Thinking in terms of item (2) above--at least some of the time--can be very useful; yes, of course, there are times when it would be unwise to think in those terms.

I tried knot4u's Double Zeppelin Bend. I like it. However, the Zeppelin Bend's type of symmetry is such that there is little room for improvement. This situation makes the Double Zeppelin Bend . . . a very pretty knot.

Contrast the beauty of the above knot with the ugly monstrosity that my loop-doubling method turned the Zeppelin Knot into. But, the method works, and works well and consistently, once you figure out how to dress the beast.

I tried roo's Double-Wide (by making a double-coil b and a double-coil q). Now THAT'S one wide beast.

Then whaddaya think I did? I made a Double-Wide Double Zeppelin Bend. It was BIG. REAL big. But it was NOT easy to untie! It JAMMED!

If I got it right, Dan_Lehman's extra half turn on the b and extra half turn on the q resulted in something quite interesting, which was easy enough to untie.

JCS

jcsampson

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #58 on: June 21, 2010, 02:43:47 AM »
Attached is a prettier, more symmetrical-looking Zeppelin Double Loop.

Unlike the different Zeppelin Double Loop that I described earlier, this one has loops that--like the French Bowline--remain somewhat variable even when the knot is tight.

The color red identifies the two loops that are to be brought together.

JCS

Transminator

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2010, 08:29:11 AM »
    Here is a picture of the unfinished knot, just before the fifth (5) step . The standing end is coming from the top of the picture, the first, auxiliary loop is the one with the vertical long axis, the second, the main Zeppelin loop, is the one with the horizontal long axis, and the working end is showing here looking like a hook, just before the stage when it becomes a tail that passes through both eyes.( initially through the first, and finally through the second eye.)

I have several problems with this:

1. No matter how hard I try, but this does not result in a zeppelin loop!
2. You say it starts like a bowline. But when I look at the first eye I see the working end crossing under the standing part.
    When I tie a bowline the "landlubbers way", it is the other way round
3. When I form the eye as in the bowline (WE crossing over the SP) and all other things like in your picture, I end up with
    something that looks a bit like a zeppelin loop, but is not.

Am I the only one who has a problem with this?
Could you double-check that the picture is correct?