Author Topic: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend  (Read 82895 times)

Dan_Lehman

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #75 on: June 24, 2010, 07:32:14 PM »
As for Roo's assertion of jamming,

[ to wit: ]
Quote
I'm not at this point seeing the ease of tying an Ashley Loop, but that may come with time if it has good qualities (more on this next).  But I would expect there would be more to remember, since there is more to remember in the corresponding bend.  There's not just the geometry of the b and q, but also how they initially interlink.

On to testing, I find that the loop, like the bend, is prone to jamming.  This may be mitigated by dressing a certain way, but this jamming tendency cannot thereby be ignored.  Tyers will randomly arrive at both configurations (assuming that there are only two).  Having a duality or multiplicity of stable knot forms for a single knot increases the odds that unfavorable attributes will arise and obviously increases the amount of investigation that must be done to ferret out the knot properties for all forms or shapes.

... that is simply not something I've found, if the knot is properly tied
to avoid that.

And such tying is pretty natural, IMO.  E.g., I just loaded (w/body
weight and 5:1 pulley, so w/more than normal working load)
some 5/16" cheap ("Home Depot" is the common moniker)
kernmantle (multifilament polypropyline ?) that is wellworn & frictive.
The knot hardly jammed in any real sense as far as untying is
concerned (it got tight enough to resist loosening).

I repeated this loading with super-slick PP monofilament marine
kernmantle of like diameter; this stuff loosens easily (did I say
"super-slick"? !!).

As for what knot tyers "will" do, well, yeah, all sorts of things
can happen.  In other places, one can read of Rosendahl's bend
("Zep.") being capsized in part and jammed to the point of
needing tools (and special verbal utterances) to untie; that is
a circumstance of (a) loosely set knot from big stiff bull rope
(laid), (b) disturbance of being hauled through a rocky surface,
and (c) high load.  Knot tyers might well mis-tie anything, and
indeed one can see mistaken presentations of various knots as
simple as the ones discussed here.  Often, a good final result
is not presented; the words given "dress & set" have an empty
ring, thus, for there is no guidance to what that means (often
because the author doesn't know).

--dl*
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roo

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #76 on: June 24, 2010, 07:38:05 PM »
  It's "more favorable"
because the tail conveniently exits roughly parallel with the
opposite SPart, in contrast to emerging from the side of the
body at a right angle.
That's your reason?  

Quote
As for Roo's assertion of jamming, that is simply not something
I've found, if the knot is properly tied to avoid that.

But of course it won't be dressed as you wish since the knot doesn't force that dressing.  It'll be tied with some difficulty according to a diagram, where the jamming form will often come up due to the random movements of the tyer.  
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roo

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #77 on: June 24, 2010, 07:47:16 PM »
As for what knot tyers "will" do, well, yeah, all sorts of things
can happen.  In other places, one can read of Rosendahl's bend
("Zep.") being capsized in part and jammed to the point of
needing tools (and special verbal utterances) to untie; that is
a circumstance of (a) loosely set knot from big stiff bull rope
(laid), (b) disturbance of being hauled through a rocky surface,
and (c) high load.  Knot tyers might well mis-tie anything, and
indeed one can see mistaken presentations of various knots as
simple as the ones discussed here.  

Please don't quote other threads.  It gets very confusing.

A Zeppelin Bend being distorted due to a user failing to set the knot is an entirely separate problem from an Ashley bend having various stable forms, one of which will jam even if it is set firmly.

One case is user error (with a rare result), the other case is a problem with the knot failing to easily draw up to an optimal form on its own (with a common* result).  The Ashley Bend is difficult enough to tie as it is, it doesn't need another separate diagram to remind users of the optimal way of dressing it even after it's tied correctly.

* http://davidmdelaney.com/jam-testing/jam-testing-several-bends.html
« Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 09:53:37 PM by roo »
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #78 on: June 25, 2010, 05:34:47 AM »
.. an Ashley bend having various stable forms, one of which will jam even if it is set firmly.
... a common* result).

* http://davidmdelaney.com/jam-testing/jam-testing-several-bends.html

No number of citations of this experiment with thin cord is going
to change the results I have with Real(tm) cordage -- rope.

I should note that the jamming orientation also provide for
forcible loosening : pull the tails apart (which levers the
collars back out over the SParts a bit, sufficient to then
loosening manually).  Heavily loaded (think big rope, big things)
knots might take some handy help.

--dl*
====

jcsampson

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #79 on: June 25, 2010, 07:47:48 PM »
To roo:

ABOK #1408 appears to be somewhat related to the Zeppelin Bend's design--if you do not cross the tails as shown in the diagram. What do you think of this ABOK #1408?

JCS

roo

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #80 on: June 25, 2010, 09:51:49 PM »
ABOK #1408 appears to be somewhat related to the Zeppelin Bend's design--if you do not cross the tails as shown in the diagram. What do you think of this ABOK #1408?
Starting a new thread for this:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1885.msg12902#msg12902
« Last Edit: June 25, 2010, 10:38:18 PM by roo »
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dmacdd

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #81 on: June 27, 2010, 12:15:34 AM »
I've integrated what I've learned from this thread in a complete revision of my web page on the Zeppelin Bend, also expanding it to include the Zeppelin Loop.

http://davidmdelaney.com/zeppelin/Zeppelin-bend-and-Zeppelin-loop.html

I hope that the presentation there usefully integrates b and q visualization based on roo's new diagram with JCS's verbal procedure based on the overhand knot  (presented earlier in this thread), the result being a uniform way of tying the bend and the loop that neither abandons nor requires b and q visualization, b and q visualization being always applicable to the evolving knot structure if the knot maker wishes to bring it to conscience.

jcsampson

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #82 on: June 27, 2010, 02:45:45 AM »
Quote from: dmacdd
". . . the result [is] a uniform way of tying the bend and the loop that neither abandons nor requires b and q visualization, b and q visualization being always applicable to the evolving knot structure if the knot maker wishes to bring it to conscience."

Very well-put.

Beautiful job you did on your new web page for the Zeppelin Bend and Zeppelin Loop:

- http://davidmdelaney.com/zeppelin/Zeppelin-bend-and-Zeppelin-loop.html

Here are the precise URLs of the verbal procedures for the Zeppelin Loop and Zeppelin Double Loop, respectively, should you ever want to refer to them directly:

- http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1872.msg12734#msg12734
- http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1872.msg12800#msg12800

JCS

roo

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #83 on: June 27, 2010, 04:28:55 AM »
I've integrated what I've learned from this thread in a complete revision of my web page on the Zeppelin Bend, also expanding it to include the Zeppelin Loop.

http://davidmdelaney.com/zeppelin/Zeppelin-bend-and-Zeppelin-loop.html

I hope that the presentation there usefully integrates b and q visualization based on roo's new diagram with JCS's verbal procedure based on the overhand knot  (presented earlier in this thread), the result being a uniform way of tying the bend and the loop that neither abandons nor requires b and q visualization, b and q visualization being always applicable to the evolving knot structure if the knot maker wishes to bring it to conscience.

Here's a possible objection that could be made to making the overhand knot first for the b part of the bend:

Some tyers might make their "q" while tucking through the wrong part or parts of the "b" overhand knot, versus having no tucking to do whatsoever during a nearly simultaneous "b" and "q" formation.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2010, 04:31:42 AM by roo »
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dmacdd

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #84 on: June 27, 2010, 04:44:31 AM »

Here are the precise URLs of the verbal procedures for the Zeppelin Loop and Zeppelin Double Loop, respectively, should you ever want to refer to them directly:

- http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1872.msg12734#msg12734
- http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1872.msg12800#msg12800

Now incorporated as references at the bottom of

http://davidmdelaney.com/zeppelin/Zeppelin-bend-and-Zeppelin-loop.html

dmacdd

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #85 on: June 27, 2010, 04:55:36 AM »

Here's a possible objection that could be made to making the overhand knot first for the b part of the bend:

Some tyers might make their "q" while tucking through the wrong part or parts of the "b" overhand knot, versus having no tucking to do whatsoever during a nearly simultaneous "b" and "q" formation.

But that objection is applicable to _any_ method that is not the lay-the-b-over-the-q method.

Perhaps those who make the bend only infrequently and the loop never would be better off learning only the lay-the-b-over-the-q method.  But those who either tie the bend frequently, or need or want to know both the bend and the loop, would be better off to know the uniform method for both well enough not to make that mistake. 

And the fact that this particular alternative method allows b and q visualization would tend to prevent such errors by allowing a mental check on the correctness of the evolving knot.

roo

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #86 on: June 27, 2010, 07:02:30 AM »
Here's a possible objection that could be made to making the overhand knot first for the b part of the bend:

Some tyers might make their "q" while tucking through the wrong part or parts of the "b" overhand knot, versus having no tucking to do whatsoever during a nearly simultaneous "b" and "q" formation.
But that objection is applicable to _any_ method that is not the lay-the-b-over-the-q method.
I don't want to overemphasize the issue.  I present it mostly as something to keep in mind given that knot enthusiasts can overestimate the knot-tying abilities of occasional knot users. 

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dmacdd

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #87 on: July 02, 2010, 06:00:59 PM »
A nice video presenting the Zeppelin Bend and the Zeppelin Loop. From the blurb on the video:

"This is to demonstrate that the "overhand knot" method of tying the Zeppelin Loop is the "69" method of the Zeppelin Bend in disguise. They are both the same. Tying the Zeppelin Loop this way makes it in my opinion a lot easier and more memorable as it is one smooth threading process, in which you have the 6 and 9 structure of the Zeppelin Bend for guidance"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FNj-Q-3pQ4

knot4u

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #88 on: July 02, 2010, 06:39:05 PM »
Here are some pretty cool stress tests on Zeppelin Bend:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Givv9cBB_Hw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-uQrx7yPYM&NR=1

Actually, this topic is more fit for a new thread:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1902.0
« Last Edit: July 02, 2010, 07:52:07 PM by knot4u »

DDK

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #89 on: October 28, 2010, 04:55:27 AM »
I prefer Option #2, sort of...  When I have made the loop, I have made it by rethreading the bend.

By this I mean that I have used two ropes and produced the bend while leaving one working end very long (this will become the loop).  I use this long working end and follow (by rethreading) the standing part of the other rope through the bend until reaching the other working end.  Then I remove the superfluous rope.

This general method requires an additional rope, but, elliminates the need to learn a method applicable only to the Zepplin Bend.  The one additional piece of information required is that the loop is formed by the connection of the standing part to the working end of the bend (like the Sheetbend / Bowline).  This method could be tedious for more intricate bends, but, tends to work well enough for the interlocking overhand bends, i.e. the Ashley or the Smith/Hunter's.

DDK

« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 05:26:30 AM by DDK »