Author Topic: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend  (Read 82890 times)

Transminator

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #60 on: June 21, 2010, 08:31:59 AM »
Attached is a prettier, more symmetrical-looking Zeppelin Double Loop.

Unlike the different Zeppelin Double Loop that I described earlier, this one has loops that--like the French Bowline--remain somewhat variable even when the knot is tight.

The color red identifies the two loops that are to be brought together.

JCS

Could you make a diagram of the other method you described earlier, because the Zeppelin dbl Loop I tied from your description also acts like a french bowline. Maybe I am tying it different.

knot4u

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #61 on: June 21, 2010, 08:50:35 AM »
For all you young bucks who may be a little unsure of yourselves, here's the certified best way to tie the Zeppelin Loop, which is also Roo's "Alternative Method" (Option 1):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocoUUu1E520

Dan_Lehman

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #62 on: June 21, 2010, 06:06:21 PM »
    Another method of tying the Zeppelin loop.

     Forget all about  the compound element called "overhand knot". We can tie the Zeppelin loop using the simpler/simplest elements called "eyes" and "loops". The Zeppelin loop is made by two eyes and two loops, after the contraction of the first loop.

6 elementary steps :
 [...]
Now,  unfortunately there is a problem with this method. There are two ways one can accomplish Step 4., as the working end can form an eye around the second leg of the first loop in clockwise or anti-clockwise direction.

Goodness, how can such an ambiguous set of instructions past muster at all?
Yes, step 4 has that problem, but so too many prior steps -- i.p., the very first.
And your use of "eye" and "loop" run directly opposite to the course I set in
a nomenclature thread, some time ago (to run parallel with "soft eye", "eye
splice" usage; to limit "loop" to a knot component/structure).  argh@#$


One needs to establish a frame of reference.  In this particular case, the eyeknot
was to be oriented eye-downward, SPart going away upwards.  One can refer to
the clock or compass rose to provide precise guidance.  E.g., for this image, one
should establish the general orientation-to-be, and start "bring the rope south
and make a 360-degree anti-clockwise turn, crossing under,
and continue south to form a small bight (much smaller than shown, please!),
also turning anti-clockwise;
then go up through the loop crossing over->under
and now make an eye of desired size to the east,
this time rotating clockwise, to return to turn around the near leg of the bight
(of Step-X -- if giving Step-wise labeling, a good idea for reference)
anti-clockwise 270degrees and crossing over-under & over;
take the tail north to turn 180deg and drop back south through the two loops;
...

Frankly, though, this method is a tedious way to do what Roo shows quite
clearly with different orientations of the starting Overhand in the SPart (and
which I remain surprised that others find so different).

--dl*
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« Last Edit: June 22, 2010, 05:10:29 PM by Dan_Lehman »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #63 on: June 21, 2010, 06:34:59 PM »
My Net-connection willing   ::) ,
voici images of a set of so-called Rosenthal's Zep. eyeknots,
where the design goal was to make the eye-legs loading more
"in line / parallel" with the axis of tension -- simply, to not
directly load the tail of the SPart's Overhand.  The three knots other
than the leftmost one all have a common base structure, which one
might see as some sort of "Rosenthal knot", the same "coming as going."
The rightmost eyeknot presented here is the fullest manifestation of
matching the "b" & "q" loading profile; compare to Roo's diagram.
But, necessarily, with the twin legs of the eye vs. the single SPart,
one has that imbalance.  I can see the grounds for "monstrosity",
however much an exaggeration that might be; if one needs to tie
in the bight, this does it.

How to dress the ends is something I think I've settled with the end-2-end
knot, but am less settled here with the eyeknots.  What I'd like to effect
is a bending of the SPart over the two diameters of the "ends" (well, one
is rather "middle" as far as this goes) --the nipped parts-- something like
this (with the SPart seen as drawing leftwards down over cross sections
shown as 'O's) :

...<<<===\\
----------------O\\
------------------O\\
     ===>>=//

but often find it just the other way 'round, SPart making a hard u-turn
around a tail.


...<<<===\\
---------------O||
-------------O//
 ===>>=


--dl*
====

jcsampson

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #64 on: June 21, 2010, 06:45:23 PM »
Four Easy Steps to Making the Zeppelin Double Loop

(1) Tie the Overhand (crossing OVER the line) and hold its leftmost [sic] section (of the Overhand's three sections) farthest from you.

(2) Take your working end around a post (from underneath the post, if the post is horizontal), to form the first loop, and bring the working end through the rightmost [sic] Overhand section from underneath (rotate your structure-in-progress as necessary, if your post is horizontal).

(3) Take the working end through the formed loop from above [sic] and then around the post again, to form the second loop, and bring the working end through the leftmost [sic] Overhand section from underneath (rotate your structure-in-progress as necessary, if your post is horizontal).

(4) Take the working end through the formed loops from underneath [sic] and thread it ALONG the OTHER loop part until it goes through the two internal subloops that that other loop part goes through.

Viola! Zeppelin Double Loop. Adjust the sizes of your loops when the knot is loose, by manipulating the appropriate Overhand (of the two Overhands that make up the Zeppelin Knot).

See also the following:

- http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1872.msg12791#msg12791
- http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1872.msg12734#msg12734

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to make a Bowstring on the Double-Knotted Bowline.

JCS

Edit: I should stop saying "Viola!" and start saying, "Voila!"
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 06:57:50 PM by jcsampson »

jcsampson

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #65 on: June 21, 2010, 07:21:41 PM »
Quote from: Transminator
"Could you make a diagram of the other method you described earlier, because the Zeppelin dbl Loop I tied from your description also acts like a french bowline [?] . . ."

Well, that version is really just . . . an experiment, so the value of its diagram wouldn't be worth the pain of the effort needed to create it. I wouldn't prefer that version of the double loop to this one:

- http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1872.msg12800#msg12800

Perhaps you didn't tighten the knot itself enough for it to keep the loops from being easily variable as they are in the French Bowline?

It could also be argued that the resistance to loop variability in that ugly bulky version is somewhat . . . limited to begin with. It's just the odd positioning and crossing, within the Zeppelin Knot, of the part that joins the two loops, that offers the "resistance" to loop variability. Perhaps the rope that I used, which has a nice grip, fooled me into thinking that the resistance is adequate. . . .

JCS

knot4u

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #66 on: June 21, 2010, 09:02:48 PM »
Just to summarize, the following is the certified best way to tie the Zeppelin Bend, which is similar to Roo's "Alternative Method" (Option 1):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wSVdUQhBt8&feature=PlayList&p=4117BBE322087898&playnext_from=PL&index=0&playnext=1

Transminator

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #67 on: June 22, 2010, 09:49:49 AM »
Just to summarize, the following is the certified best way to tie the Zeppelin Bend, which is similar to Roo's "Alternative Method" (Option 1):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wSVdUQhBt8&feature=PlayList&p=4117BBE322087898&playnext_from=PL&index=0&playnext=1

Realy? Who certified that?

I find it both easier and more memorable to tie it from the rear (which points out the "sameness" of the "69" and "overhand" methods more clearly)
as I demonstrated here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9HRegcP9NU

and here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FNj-Q-3pQ4 (how the zeppelin bend's 69 method "evolves" into the zeppelin loop (via the overhand knot))

The beauty of the this thread here is that different methods are presented
to give the user/learner a choice. Its up to the user, which one he prefers and chooses for himself.

roo

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #68 on: June 23, 2010, 12:52:20 AM »

    The "other" Zeppelin Loop.

    What happens when we use the Zeppelin bend as the base of a loop, using the tail of the original bend as the  standing end of the loop ? We get another Zeppelin loop !, probably as good as its major relative, but me, for one, I have never read something about it. In its loaded form it looks quite different from "the" Zeppelin Loop we have been discussing about on this thread, but it is more compact, and perhaps, as an end of one line loop, an even better knot ! Who knows ? It might be an easier knot to tie... :)
 

Since the standing part takes 100% of the load and the two legs take 50%, such a loop would be more akin in loading to the inverse of the Zeppelin Bend (which jams if I recall, unlike the Zeppelin Bend).  So the loop form would probably be more appropriately labeled whatever you want to call the inverse of the Zeppelin Bend.

I wouldn't be so quick to assume that it would have good qualities at all. 
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roo

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #69 on: June 23, 2010, 04:37:26 PM »
There is a major difference with the inverse of the Zeppelin bend. As in this loop  the two legs are loaded while they run to the same ditrection almost parallel to each other

Can you be more specific?  Are the legs the standing parts of the original bend?  If you just look at the knot form without worrying about what is the standing part, legs and free end, does it exactly match the Zeppelin/Rosendahl Bend form?
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roo

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #70 on: June 23, 2010, 06:52:25 PM »
  1. Yes.
   2. Yes and No... :)  
   Tie the Zeppelin bend. The two standing parts of the two ropes, the two ends, run to opposite directions. Now, swivel the two halves of the knot around the two tails, ( pivot the two hinged overhand knots around the axis ...
Such a loop based on the inverse of the Zeppelin Bend became difficult to untie after a heavy strain during a quick test.  I also noticed that the part of the knot that was holding the free end tended to loosen up.
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knot4u

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #71 on: June 23, 2010, 08:09:16 PM »
Xarax, that first pic in Reply #88 is freakin' sweet!  Why didn't I think of that before?  I have no comment about the performance though.

It's been said that the Honda Loop provides the most perfect circle.  Correction, I think we have a knew winner.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 08:52:59 PM by knot4u »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #72 on: June 24, 2010, 05:10:17 AM »
Xarax, that first pic in Reply #88 is freakin' sweet!  Why didn't I think of that before?

Because you don't think so well?  -- or because thinking isn't
the best way ... .

It kinda takes the fun, the serendipity out of finding ELFEKS
(empirically less-frequently-encountered knotted structures(s))
--a "new"-in-knotting denier's long-winded term-- ,
but one could develop a rigorous checklist to employ for each
new tangle encountered, to be sure to touch all the bases.

E.g., with an end-2-end knot, one has 4 exit-parts ("ends"?),
in two connected-through-knot pieces, A & B, and assume that
the given knot has a canonically defined loading A1-v-B1,
ends A2 & B2 free; then one can go down the list and check:
end-2-end knots A2-v-B2 (unless highly symmetric like Reef knot),
  A1-v-B2, and if asymmetric A2-v-B1 ;
eyeknots A1-v-A2+B1, ...+B2, A2/B1,B2, and if asymmetric B1/B1, etc.
eyeknots by my "twinning" method (for each case above (!!)),
stopper knots A1->B1, A1->B2, A2->B1, A2->B2, and if ... ;
and that's w/o variances in dressing to consider.
(Such rigor should, e.g., discover Ashley's Stopper from the
Sheet Bend (or from the Bowline); or "should" => "might"/"could".)


It quickly gets overwhelming!
(Mind you, I'm not suggesting that one will have a high ratio
of "keepers" in these discovered ELFEKS, but they will have at
least been considered (though even here there is risk of missing
value).)


Quote
It's been said that the Honda Loop provides the most perfect circle.  Correction, I think we have a knew winner.

Another "round" one is the Anchor bend as the base, tail brought around
through it, and secured in various ways -- pretty secure w/o tying, which
was part of its creation for a rockclimbing tie-in eye (to guard against
situations in which one forgot to finish the tying).  But the Honda's eye
is small and not really in need of roundness; the knot is compact (one
I found has I think just a melted-strands stopper of its end (nylon (VERY
hard-laid))).
And the Eskimo Bowline.  And similar treatment w/SmitHunter's bend.

 :)
« Last Edit: June 29, 2010, 06:26:40 AM by Dan_Lehman »

knot4u

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #73 on: June 24, 2010, 05:36:57 AM »
Because you don't think so well?

Naw... It's because I have more important things to think about.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 08:14:41 AM by knot4u »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #74 on: June 24, 2010, 06:53:33 PM »
   Does the loop based on Ashley s bend (ABOK #1452) belong to that Subject ? [#1452 & its Ilk]
No, here is bertter, with eyeknots not end-2-end knots.

Quote
I tried to tie this loop with the " Alternative method" one ties the Zeppelin loop http://notableknotindex.webs.com/zeppelinloop.html
   and, to my mind, it looks as easy, perhaps easier, to do so. I wonder if such a  loop has the same good qualities the Zeppelin supposedly has...
   
 P.S. (24 June). Dressing the derived loop, I discovered that it makes a big deal how exactly the tails of the knot are crossed while they are coming out of it . They are crossed like an X, so the loop is loaded differently if the one leg of the X, the loaded one leg of the loop, is coming above or below the other. ( The same can be said in the case of the original Ashley Bend also, but there the loading are different and it does not seem to matter much.) So we have here two similar-but-not-exactly-the-same loops, that I call Ashley Loop 1 ad Ashley Loop 2 , for the moment. Can we tie them with a common method, that produces the one or the other without much alteration? Which loop is more secure ? ( I tend to believe that the Ashley Bend 1, and the loop derived from it, is probably more secure, as the tail(s) is (are) nipped better by the first nipping loop(s) of the standing end(s). This Asley Bend1 looks also  prettier, to my eyes, because of this braid-like appearence...)

Ashley's #1452 has a more favorable geometry for being an eyeknot.

An even more favorable geometry is realized in what Harry Asher
named the Shakehands knot, which Ashley shows --though
loading the other end-- as #1031 (and one other #); this knot
has the additional benefit of being TIB (tiable in-the bight) (which
he presents in the other #'d place, IIRC).  It's "more favorable"
because the tail conveniently exits roughly parallel with the
opposite SPart, in contrast to emerging from the side of the
body at a right angle.

As for Roo's assertion of jamming, that is simply not something
I've found, if the knot is properly tied to avoid that.  Rather, it
is a possibility I find --again, by deliberate dressing-- attactive,
if, e.g., joining the somewhat intractably springy-slick laid PP
rope so common, for maybe making a long dog leash, which
would be slack & jostled.

--dl*
====