Author Topic: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend  (Read 70276 times)

jcsampson

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2010, 07:26:01 PM »
Quote from: Transminator
"This only shows again why it is so important to show different tying methods for one and the same knot, as one might be so awkward for one person that he decides to turn his back on a particular knot, because he finds the tying method so awkward that he rather picks a different (perhaps less secure) knot."

Beautiful statement.

I, myself, had once turned my back on the Butterfly Loop, because it was propagated with that wrap-the-rope-around-your-hand method, which gave me no insight whatsoever on how the loop was constructed and how one could manipulate and adjust it. Therefore, in frustration, I dismissed it as its being "a loop that is unable to be adequately positioned and resized." (Additionally, I couldn't see how to adequately dress the thing and thought it was a bulky, ugly mass of unadjustable nonsense.) Well, I finally analyzed its construction in detail, devised for myself a simpler and more efficient way to make it, and saw, very clearly, not only that it is easily manipulated and adjusted, but very clearly HOW. Then, I went on to make myself a Double Butterfly Loop and adjusted that one, too. (Though I'd rather not have to adjust that one too often, if you know what I mean. . . .)

JCS

jcsampson

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2010, 07:31:11 PM »
Quote from: xarax
". . . never managed to achieve the same understanding and ease for the Zeppelin loop . . ."

Attached are a couple more options. Perhaps they will be the key to your final understanding.

JCS

roo

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2010, 08:41:52 PM »
My conjecture here is the following : The more symmetric is the bend, the less obvious is the memory image and the tying method of the derived loop. I have tried to test it on a loop derived from the Ashley bend, and it seems that this loop is easier to tie than the Zeppelin loop indeed , as expected.

What about the (overhand) ring bend and the corresponding overhand loop?  Both are easy.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 08:45:37 PM by roo »
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roo

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2010, 09:09:21 PM »
It's interesting to read the responses so far and to see the mental processes employed by different individuals.  I hope the lurkers join in (I see you out there  :D).

The method that attempts to hide the first overhand knot in a "b" distributes the mental energy required over two halves of the knot.  The other (follow the leader) method puts nearly all of the mental energy in the last half of the knot in order to deal with whatever handedness of overhand knot is first tied.  

I find myself seeing merits in both approaches and will likely try to keep both.  The feedback I get will help me determine how to best present the options.

« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 09:41:14 PM by roo »
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roo

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2010, 12:29:51 AM »
Now, there are a variety of ways to better match Rosendahl bend mechanics
with an eye knot, and the "pure" knot is..tiable in the bight

Care to share a diagram?
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2010, 06:26:44 AM »
Maybe your senses yearn for a true eyeknot manifestation of the knot?

Maybe, but I think that what confuses me most is the completely different - asymmetric- loading of the threads in the case of the Zeppelin loop, ...
???
What did I just say, that you quoted, for your reply?!
The highlighted phrase is exactly what you're missing
and gives you the discomfort vis-a-vis the bend.

Quote
Now, you take the most symmetric interlocked overhand bend ...
???
How is it any more symmetric than any of the others, several of which
I've presented photos of in the recently bumped thread on Interlocked
Overhands like #1452 ?!  (It is less interlocked.)

JCSampson, your diagram of Rosendahl's bend has the silhouette
that you should use for SmitHunter's -- and this accents the symmetry,
and makes for a neat comparison (w/careful attention to over/under)
of the two knots.

Roo, yes, I have diagrams ... ; but words should suffice at first:
 - your two supposed different but actually equal (why don't others
 see this?) tying methods begin with the formation of one Overhand
 component (in the SPart); okay, do this, but ...
 - at the point of completing the Overhand, do so with a bight
 (i.e., form a Slip-knot), and then with this bight (which is destined
 to become the eye),
 - now finish(!) tying the 2nd Overhand component
 (that formed by the "end")  in reverse !

(In a sense, the SPart's and end's Overhands share a tail
--consider one fused into the other-- , and the actual eyeknot's tail
is provided by the "twin" of the end-strand.)

So, Xarax, you'll still lack a perfect symmetry; but see the eye-side
as an equal whose material got twinned for the sake of an eye.
This is a general method to making an eyeknot corresponding to a
bend (corresponding with like loading, but w/twin strands opposing single).
The idea came to me via a structure presented in Barne's book on
angling knots, in which there is a knot in which one essentially
ties a Blood Knot with a leader to the two legs of a bight
of separate material for the eye; and, I thought, what if the leader's
end flowed right into one of those two eye-tails?  --bingo!

--dl*
====
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 04:21:21 PM by Dan_Lehman »

roo

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2010, 04:23:54 PM »


Roo, yes, I have diagrams ... ; but words should suffice at first:
 - your two supposed different but actually equal (why don't others
 see this?) tying methods begin with the formation of one Overhand
 component (in the SPart); okay, do this, but ...
 - at the point of completing the Overhand, do so with a bight
 (i.e., form a Slip-knot), and then with this bight (which is destined
 to become the eye),
 - now finish(!) tying the 2nd Overhand component
 (that formed by the "end")  in reverse !


Ack!  I know we sometimes discuss certain knots for academic interest only, but this may be pushing it.  

As far as the two methods in the original post being "equal", yes, in one aspect they may be equal, but certainly not in all aspects.  Not in terms of apprehension.  Not in terms of how the knot is held to accentuate the "b" in one method, etc.  It is the issue of memorability, apprehension, and the resultant ease of execution that is being discussed.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 06:32:36 PM by roo »
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jcsampson

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2010, 04:54:35 PM »
For those who haven't yet formulated the Zeppelin Loop for themselves, I say this:

The hope is that you will analyze diagrams and devise for yourself YOUR OWN method or methods. You might notice a particularly easy substructure within and then see how the working end intersects it in particularly important spots and then just remember those special spots.

One of the most important things that studying Math in college taught me is this: "If you think about something long enough, you'll eventually figure it out." You've got to analyze one little step at a time, slowly, and make a point of thoroughly enjoying every minute of it. You'll make discoveries when you do this. There are probably more good discoveries to be made in the simple, than there are in the complex.

When I tie Hunter's Bend, e.g., I say to myself, "Left goes over, right goes in from the top and under; left goes in from the bottom, right goes in from the top." In order to remember how to begin, I use the mnemonic aid of "leftovers."

Zeppelin Bend is, "Left goes over, right goes in reverse and under; left goes in from the bottom, right goes in from the top."

With the Zeppelin Loop, you need to complete one of the two Overhand substructures first simply because the line coming in from the "other side" is nothing more than a continuation of what would have been that first substructure's working end. (This further allows you to make the loop over a post, which is an extremely important option to have.) You just need to discover the special spots where the working end is to go.

Final tips: Use something in the vicinity of 1/2" rope when formulating a knot for yourself, instead of using smaller cord. It'll give you significantly greater control over . . . everything. Keep the rope and knot-in-progress flat on a tabletop or bed top as you proceed from one little step to the next. Keep the knot very loose, so that it mimics the knot diagram exactly. Follow the flow of the arrows in the diagram, which represent the movement of your working end. Think in terms of overs and unders and devise for yourself your own verbal syntax to describe those overs and unders. Once the knot is complete, tightened, and confirmed to be correct, loosen it while keeping it complete and examine it at various angles to see whether there is anything else to discover about it.

"If you think about something long enough, you'll eventually figure it out."

Tackle it. Head on. Redefine enjoyment. You're in charge.

Such is knotting.

JCS
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 05:00:51 PM by jcsampson »

knot4u

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2010, 05:17:51 PM »
Roo, yes, I have diagrams ... ; but words should suffice at first:
 - your two supposed different but actually equal (why don't others
 see this?) tying methods begin with the formation of one Overhand
 component (in the SPart); okay, do this, but ...
 - at the point of completing the Overhand, do so with a bight
 (i.e., form a Slip-knot), and then with this bight (which is destined
 to become the eye),
 - now finish(!) tying the 2nd Overhand component
 (that formed by the "end")  in reverse !

(In a sense, the SPart's and end's Overhands share a tail
--consider one fused into the other-- , and the actual eyeknot's tail
is provided by the "twin" of the end-strand.)

So, Xarax, you'll still lack a perfect symmetry; but see the eye-side
as an equal whose material got twinned for the sake of an eye.
This is a general method to making an eyeknot corresponding to a
bend (corresponding with like loading, but w/twin strands opposing single).
The idea came to me via a structure presented in Barne's book on
angling knots, in which there is a knot in which one essentially
ties a Blood Knot with a leader to the two legs of a bight
of separate material for the eye; and, I thought, what if the leader's
end flowed right into one of those two eye-tails?  --bingo!

--dl*
====

If your goal is to exclude even more people from an already arcane conversation, then I see the point of not providing diagrams.

Few people are going to sit here and spend 5 minutes imagining what you're saying when a diagram (which you have) will make it clear in 10 seconds.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2010, 06:24:06 PM »
Few people are going to sit here and spend 5 minutes imagining what you're saying ...

Sadly, you're right (in part, because there are only a few people here at all)
-- which says a lot!

Quote
when a diagram (which you have) will make it clear in 10 seconds.

You have quickly forgotten even this OP:  where the same --quite-- method
was shown in two diagrams and yet several responded about how obviously
one was better than the other (!!), or even that one negated tying an initial
Overhand, or was like the bend method -- which at least is often put forth
as a more flashy pair-&-twist-&-make-2-tucks wizardry, sometimes extended
for both SmitHunter's & Ashley's (1452) bends.

You could've (I'll still hope) have had the simPLEasure of following tying
guidance to reveal the novel eyeknot while waiting for sometime-later my
offloading images et cetera, instead of posting!

Which method --as I stated-- in generalizable to most any end-2-end knot,
for which I'll surely not be providing all images!  (E.g., working it into
the Sheet Bend and comparing results with the Bowline is an interesting
exercise (don't discard the Bowline!).)

--dl*
====

knot4u

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2010, 07:10:45 PM »
You have quickly forgotten even this OP:  where the same --quite-- method
was shown in two diagrams and yet several responded about how obviously
one was better than the other (!!), or even that one negated tying an initial
Overhand, or was like the bend method -- which at least is often put forth
as a more flashy pair-&-twist-&-make-2-tucks wizardry, sometimes extended
for both SmitHunter's & Ashley's (1452) bends.

You could've (I'll still hope) have had the simPLEasure of following tying
guidance to reveal the novel eyeknot while waiting for sometime-later my
offloading images et cetera, instead of posting!

Which method --as I stated-- in generalizable to most any end-2-end knot,
for which I'll surely not be providing all images!  (E.g., working it into
the Sheet Bend and comparing results with the Bowline is an interesting
exercise (don't discard the Bowline!).)

--dl*
====

I discussed the sameness of the two diagrams above in Reply #5.  ;D  Also, the sameness was discussed in posts before and after that Reply #5.  The important differences were also discussed.

Anyway, the original poster provided two diagrams to analyze.  Diagrams are a requirement for discussing knots with efficiency.  Diagrams get everybody on the same page quickly and absolutely.  The original poster deserves a thoughtful analysis of his question.  Jcsampson also provided diagrams above.  Anybody who doesn't post a diagram won't get much analysis in return.

I come to this site to learn about knots.  Your post about a new tying method seems interesting, but it's not clear to me what you mean.  So, just post your diagram that you said you already have.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 02:44:57 AM by knot4u »

dmacdd

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2010, 03:35:09 AM »
Wow! The Option 2 diagram is a lovely invention.  I will remember it, practice the Zeppelin Loop, and see how it sits over the long term, whereas I long ago decided not to bother with the Zeppelin Loop because of the ugliness of the option 1 diagram and the difficulty of remembering it.

jcsampson

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2010, 02:26:48 AM »
To dmacdd and those with similar objectives:

Since having a non-jamming knot is your ultimate desire and objective, I urge you to just figure out a way to remember the Zeppelin Loop once and for all and be done. Clearly, the Zeppelin Loop sports the easiest of all knots to tie and untie--once you figure it out.

Three Easy Steps

(1) Tie the Overhand (crossing OVER the line) and hold its leftmost section (of the Overhand's three sections) farthest from you.

(2) Take your working end around a post (from underneath the post, if the post is horizontal), to form the loop, and bring the working end through the leftmost Overhand section from underneath (rotate your structure-in-progress as necessary, if your post is horizontal).

(3) Take the working end through the formed loop from underneath and thread it ALONG the OTHER loop part until it goes through the two internal subloops that that other loop part goes through.

Viola! Zeppelin Loop. Adjust the size of your loop when the knot is loose, by manipulating the appropriate Overhand (of the two Overhands that make up the Zeppelin Knot).

See also the following:

- http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1872.msg12700#msg12700
- http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1878.msg12776#msg12776

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to make a tightly compressed Double Harness Bend with Parallel Ends (ABOK #1421)--my favorite bend. See

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1150.msg12484#msg12484

for an explanation of the Double Harness Bend with Parallel Ends (ABOK #1421).

JCS
« Last Edit: July 25, 2010, 12:58:25 AM by jcsampson »

dmacdd

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2010, 04:47:18 AM »
Three Easy Steps [to a Zeppelin loop]

(1) Tie the Overhand (crossing OVER the line) and hold its leftmost section (of the Overhand's three sections) farthest from you.

(2) Take your working end around a post (from underneath the post, if the post is horizontal), to form the loop, and bring the working end through the leftmost Overhand section from underneath (rotate your structure-in-progress as necessary, if your post is horizontal).

(3) Take the working end through the formed loop from underneath and thread it ALONG the OTHER loop part until it goes through the two internal subloops that that other loop part goes through.

Viola! Zeppelin Loop.

A very clear description. I followed it successfully second time. The first time I was not able to see how the knot was forming and failed to shift the forming q into a position in which the WE would slide through it.  I now understand how knot4u uses the "same method" for the ZB and the ZL. I also see that rather than using the bend method for the loop, knot4u is using the loop method for the bend. Furthermore, roo's option two diagram is essentially the same method. (How could it not be.) Which suggests that it should be used to teach the bend as well as the loop, as an alternative at least, at notable knots.

knot4u

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2010, 05:11:44 AM »
Three Easy Steps [to a Zeppelin loop]

(1) Tie the Overhand (crossing OVER the line) and hold its leftmost section (of the Overhand's three sections) farthest from you.

(2) Take your working end around a post (from underneath the post, if the post is horizontal), to form the loop, and bring the working end through the leftmost Overhand section from underneath (rotate your structure-in-progress as necessary, if your post is horizontal).

(3) Take the working end through the formed loop from underneath and thread it ALONG the OTHER loop part until it goes through the two internal subloops that that other loop part goes through.

Viola! Zeppelin Loop.

A very clear description. I followed it successfully second time. The first time I was not able to see how the knot was forming and failed to shift the forming q into a position in which the WE would slide through it.  I now understand how knot4u uses the "same method" for the ZB and the ZL. I also see that rather than using the bend method for the loop, knot4u is using the loop method for the bend. Furthermore, roo's option two diagram is essentially the same method. (How could it not be.) Which suggests that it should be used to teach the bend as well as the loop, as an alternative at least, at notable knots.

exactly  ;)