Author Topic: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend  (Read 70610 times)

Seaworthy

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #120 on: August 05, 2014, 09:55:46 PM »
I have found though that the Bowline can jam in stiff line if the knot is not dressed well and high load is applied suddenly.

PLEASE EXPLAIN!!!
I would like to see a photo of the jammed form.
Except if the tied-in-stiff-rope (and thus not set
in snug enough form) capsizes, I cannot see how
one can get jamming.  Is it a question of stretch
that so diminished the SPart to slide out through
(typically not binding) collar so that relaxation
gives a *swollen* SPart now not able to return
into the knot?  I've seen this sort of behavior,
but still think that the knot can be loosened.

Thanks,
--dl*
====

Here you go.

One side of a bowline its jammed state:

Seaworthy

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #121 on: August 05, 2014, 10:11:07 PM »
Dan, this is the other side. I cut the knot before realising I did not have a photo of this side, so I have tucked in some line to reproduce it.

The loop was tied in nylon octoplait stiffened by salt water and use. As I stated, it was most likely not dressed well. The line did not bend easily and the initial loop would not have snugged down well and not recognising the importance, I doubt I would have wasted a lot of time doing this. It was not, however, super loose.

It addition, it was likely high load was applied rapidly. I cannot recall when it was tied, it would have been a long while ago, but it was likely in high wind when the snubber needed to be extended and before I was using an Alpine Butterfly.

The Zepp bend I showed a photo of earlier was in similar line and did not need excessive dressing and could be undone with two fingers after 48 hours of 25-35 knot winds putting a lot of load on the line and creating high snatch loads as the 18 ton boat veered around in gusts. I found this bend extremely impressive in these conditions.

roo

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #122 on: August 05, 2014, 10:27:17 PM »
  Xarax is a purist on z. mechanics and denies membership into his exalted realm of z. knots if certain criteria aren't met.

  I am purist, indeed, because this is one rare case where I can !  :) Because the mechanism, per se, of a genuine Zeppelin-like knot IS pure !
It's so ironic that you propose a loop that destroys the so-called "hinge" mechanism by jamming extra material in, making the shear plane into more of a cantilever that capsizes in elastic material.  This bloated loop based on the blimp knot isn't realistically "tiable" at all without pages of instructions.  You even admit in another thread that you hijacked on another website that it isn't practical.  Absurd!
« Last Edit: August 05, 2014, 10:31:25 PM by roo »
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xarax

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #123 on: August 05, 2014, 10:59:34 PM »
   More material in place of the hinge s pin, does not destroy its mechanism at all - on the contrary, it enhances the mechanism, because it makes the pin stiffer, so it helps it confront the main forces a pin of a hinge is meant to confront : the shear forces
   
  (  The repeated reference to "elastic material"(sic) is irrelevant : I do not tie fixed loops on "elastic material", or on boiled material ( = spaghetti )  :) ).
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 12:21:47 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

roo

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #124 on: August 05, 2014, 11:03:43 PM »
More material in place of the hinge s pin, does not destroy its mechanism at all - on the contrary, it enhances the mechanism,
   
Wrong again, xarax.  By increasing the distance between the shear planes, it allows bending of the "pin" and capsizing can occur.  The stretchier the rope, the worse the problem.   
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xarax

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #125 on: August 05, 2014, 11:10:09 PM »
More material in place of the hinge s pin, does not destroy its mechanism at all - on the contrary, it enhances the mechanism,

Wrong again, roo.  The distance between the "shear plane"s, does not increase, because the two first curves remain adjacent to each other, i.e., at the same zero distance ! The diameter of the pin does not affect the distance between the "knuckles" - as everybody who has seen one hinge once in his life knows !

« Last Edit: August 05, 2014, 11:11:05 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

roo

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #126 on: August 05, 2014, 11:15:38 PM »
The distance between the "shear plane"s, does not increase, because the two first curves remain adjacent to each other, i.e., at the same zero distance ! The diameter of the pin does not affect the distance between the "knuckles" - as everybody who has seen one hinge once in his life knows !
In your bloated blimp loop, the mean line of force (if both legss are loaded equally) does move away from the shear plane another half rope diameter from the standard Zeppelin configuration.  The situation is even worse if the legs are unevenly loaded.  In that case the shear plane can move over a full rope diameter from the standard Zeppelin configuration!

In your quest for purity, you've become your own worst enemy.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 07:18:14 AM by roo »
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roo

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #127 on: August 05, 2014, 11:47:17 PM »
I do not know what this "bloated blimp loop" is
You posted it:


What's stranger is that you were arguing about it.  Shoot first, and ask questions later?
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roo

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #128 on: August 06, 2014, 12:12:25 AM »
I do not propose this [bloat blimpl loop] loop as an "alternative"
Oops, another "real" loop bites the dust.
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xarax

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #129 on: August 06, 2014, 12:26:36 AM »
   I understand you may find difficult to tie a Girth hitch-based loop without "pages of instructions"(sic) ... so I make you a favour, and show pictures of the loose and of the compact knot.
   Enjoy !   
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 12:23:14 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

roo

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #130 on: August 06, 2014, 12:29:13 AM »
- keep citing your <edited> website, with any"thing" it contains.
What's this new diversion?  Now you're upset that something in my website might be edited?  ::)  Can you be more specific with your new pointless, off-topic gripe?

Quote
Do hope that Seaworthy, [...] will buy your so-called "Sailor s hitch" this time !  :)
It's actually Clifford Ashley's (read the footnote).  You can start a new topic if you feel like bashing him.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2014, 12:33:52 AM by roo »
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #131 on: August 06, 2014, 06:57:38 AM »
I have found though that the Bowline can jam in stiff line if the knot is not dressed well and high load is applied suddenly.

PLEASE EXPLAIN!!!
I would like to see a photo of the jammed form.
Except if the tied-in-stiff-rope (and thus not set
in snug enough form) capsizes, ...

Here you go.
One side of a bowline its jammed state:

I hope you and all can see that this bowline
has indeed capsized, and the knot's initial
"turNip" is opened now towards straightening
and casting most of the knotting into the
once tail bight which is now more nearly
a pile hitch !  --lovely.  I surmise that the
frictive nature of aged rope might play some
role in this working --to make parts grip and
pull apart vice sliding and tightening!?

--dl*
====

Dan_Lehman

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #132 on: August 06, 2014, 07:14:50 AM »
I do not know what this "bloated blimp loop" is
You posted it:


And it's a lovely knot, worth seeing again!
It's "bloated"ness comes in sort of doubling
of the central nipping *turns* --one being
of the "bowled over" sort.  My unshown
discovery lessens bloat there, but adds a
2nd collar on the SPart (some prior variant
did this around the eye legs, which don't
stand to benefit from it as the SPart might).

And the tail-twist version I described above
(where the final tail-tuck is made to encircle
its logical opposite/corresponding part, and
then the tail hauled straight to impart that
encircling to that opp/corr. part) I now see
is really a sort of corruption/version of X.'s
prettier but more awkward-to-tie variant,
which is more straightforwardly larksheady
(to coin a term).

The jamming of the zeppelin loop can be
thwarted by making a full turn of the SPart's
tail-tucking ("tail" in this inchoate stage),
which leaves the to-become-collar part free
of direct force from the SPart-side eye leg.
.:. minimal bloat, should float your boat.


--dl*
====

Seaworthy

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #133 on: August 06, 2014, 07:58:19 AM »
I have found though that the Bowline can jam in stiff line if the knot is not dressed well and high load is applied suddenly.

PLEASE EXPLAIN!!!
I would like to see a photo of the jammed form.
Except if the tied-in-stiff-rope (and thus not set
in snug enough form) capsizes, ...

Here you go.
One side of a bowline its jammed state:

I hope you and all can see that this bowline
has indeed capsized, and the knot's initial
"turNip" is opened now towards straightening
and casting most of the knotting into the
once tail bight which is now more nearly
a pile hitch !  --lovely.  I surmise that the
frictive nature of aged rope might play some
role in this working --to make parts grip and
pull apart vice sliding and tightening!?

--dl*
====

When I first looked closely at this monstrosity I had a moment's doubt that I had tied it correctly (the tail on the outside looked downright odd). After I cut it and carefully loosened it, I reproduced each curve in some new line, poked and prodded and tightened it up and low and behold it was a perfect bowline. Yes - it was the initial loop that had tried to straighten rather than clinching.

I suspect the sudden high load was as much to blame as the stiffness of the line preventing a tighter initial loop being formed when it was tied.

I had never imagined a bowline could behave like this. First time for everything :).

Sorry for the thread drift Roo, but Dan did ask.

xarax

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #134 on: August 06, 2014, 08:53:55 AM »
  My unshown discovery

WHERE is it ? Spill the beans, spell the oracle !  :)
This is not a knot.