Author Topic: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend  (Read 70302 times)

roo

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For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« on: June 13, 2010, 04:59:48 AM »
UPDATED:

For those familiar with both the Zeppelin Loop and the Zeppelin Bend (or for those at least willing to learn them), I'm looking for your objective opinion.

Which method of tying the Zeppelin Loop do you find easiest and most memorable?

Option 1, The Alternative Method at the bottom of the page:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/zeppelinloop.html

or

Option 2, which approximates the bend method at the top of the page:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/zeppelinloop.html

There is no rush.  You can take all the time you need to toy with both approaches.   Thanks in advance.   :)

« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 04:59:02 AM by roo »
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jcsampson

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2010, 06:05:37 AM »
Without a doubt, I prefer Option 2, which approximates the bend method:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/zloopbendmethod.png

Don't try that with Hunter's Bend, whatever you do. It'll turn out to be even MORE lopsided, and it'll JAM!  :o

On a side note:

Before I allowed Hunter's Bend into my personal library of knots, I heard stories of it's jamming and said to myself, "Well, if it jams, it cannot have a place in my library, because I hate knots that can't easily be untied." So, I tried it and--based on relative experiences with knots that I found to be difficult to untie--said, "Oh, that's fine. All I have to do is pull the side bumps down" and welcomed it into my library.

Here's how I see it:

A knot that becomes compressed with no easy way to decompress it is a knot that jams.

A knot that becomes compressed but that retains an adequate way to decompress it is a knot that simply becomes compressed.

So, maybe it's just that our definitions of jamming differ.

But, one thing's for certain: I'll never use the Hunter's Bend Loop--it's way too lopsided!

JCS

Transminator

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2010, 04:29:38 PM »
Hi Roo

Its funny that this topic comes up just now, cause I have been toying around with the zeppelin loop all week to find a better way of tying it. I have only been aware of option 1 (from your knot index) and always found it a bit awkward, as it is a two-step operation.
I came up with version 2 a few days ago and wondered if somebody else found it already as I have not seen it on the web. I was thinking of posting a question here and next thing I find this new thread.

I definitely prefer method 2, as it saves the trouble of tying an overhand knot first. Well, the overhand knot is tied in the process but you don't have to stop and re-arrange yourself. It is one smooth threading process with the standing end in one, the working end in the other hand.

I form a 6 and start threading the end through from the back, go around, thread it through the upper small loop from the back, form a 9 (the gray bit in the pic) and then the end needs to be threaded through the two eyes of the 6 and 9 as in the bend> done. With a little practice, this is a very smooth, quick AND memorable operation (after a few times, your hands do it automatically), which should make the loop more attractive for beginners. This is my preferred method since I found it.

It could help to promote the zeppelin loop more, which would be well deserved, considering all its merits: easily adjustable, reliable (strong and secure), non-jamming, can be tied around an object easily and with method 2 there is a quick (and fun) way to tie it too.

thanks for posting this

knot4u

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2010, 04:45:42 PM »
Option 1 = Easiest for loop and bend
Option 2 = Most memorable for loop and bend

Maybe something's wrong with me.  :P  Option 1 is easier and quicker for both the Zeppelin Bend and the Zeppelin Loop.  Option 1 involves first quickly tying a loose overhand, breathing, and then easily weaving the working end through that overhand.  Also, I can tie Option 1 using one hand.  Note that I learned the Option 2 method before I learned the Option 1 method.

Option 2 is more memorable, but I cannot tie Option 2 quickly or with one hand.  Using Option 2 for the loop is an unnecessarily awkward combination of steps.  Nevertheless, I occasionally practice Option 2 ("69") for both the bend and the loop because it's more memorable.  For example, if someone asked me to tie the Zeppelin loop after 15 years of not even thinking about these knots, then I could remember "69" and brute force my way into correctly tying the knot.

By the way, if I were going to teach the "69" method to someone who is unfamiliar with these knots, then I would definitely start with the Zeppelin bend (a.o.t., loop).  The "69" version in the loop would be confusing as heck until one practices the bend several times and digests the "69" concept.  Even after I had already learned the "69" method for the bend, I sometimes tied the bend incorrectly until the correct method finally clicked.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2010, 10:55:24 PM by knot4u »

jcsampson

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2010, 09:14:19 PM »
Look at both of roo's diagrams carefully and realize that they are nearly the same. They both require the tying of an Overhand, first, in the standing part.

The first diagram has these differences:

- The (first) Overhand goes under (the standing part) and over and under the part that went under, whereas in the second diagram the (first) Overhand goes over (the standing part) and under and over the part that went over

- The working end goes under the appropriate first Overhand part from above, whereas in the second diagram it goes over the appropriate first Overhand part from below

- The second, finishing Overhand on the working end goes over (what is now the new standing part that matters) and under and over the part that went over, whereas in the second diagram it goes under (what is now the new standing part that matters) and over and under that part that went under

Of course, the first diagram is also rotated 90 degrees clockwise in relation to the second.

The second diagram, however, goes out of its way to showcase a nice, symmetrical view of a partially formed Zeppelin knot. This allows a knotter to grasp the perspective very quickly, easily, and comfortably.

(Applauds loudly.)

JCS

knot4u

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2010, 09:21:52 PM »
I fully understand that both methods require an overhand knot initially.  We can go further and say that both Options are technically the same.  I think Roo is fully aware of the sameness of the Options, but I don't think that's the point of the question.  

It's important to note that the original question is specifically about the loop, not the bend.  Roo distinctly did make an Option 1 and an Option 2 for us to examine.  If I follow Option 2 strictly as diagrammed, that method is unduly complex (but easy to remember because of the "69").  Again, if I start a beginner with this "69" for the Zeppelin loop (a.o.t. the bend), then I think the beginner would NOT appreciate how the heck the "69" is supposed to make things easier.  The "69" does NOT make things easier until one has mastered the "69" in the bend first.  Meanwhile, Option 1 is simple and intuitive for me after only one try.

Perhaps Roo is asking the wrong crowd and needs to ask "average" people who don't know much about knots and who have never heard of a Zeppelin loop/bend.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2010, 09:40:22 PM by knot4u »

jcsampson

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2010, 09:39:55 PM »
That is, the "69" form is in both diagrams, but only in the second is it excruciatingly clear.

Also excruciatingly clear in the second are the two Overhands' overlapping portions that receive the double "go-through."

Remember that I'm mentioning these things mainly for those visitors who are new to knotting; one of your responses gave me the idea, which is good, because it gave me reason to think and formulate. . . . (I like to think and formulate; that's why I come here!)

JCS
« Last Edit: June 13, 2010, 09:41:26 PM by jcsampson »

knot4u

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2010, 09:44:47 PM »
The "69" and the overhand are technically in every Zeppelin bend formation, but again I don't think that's the point of the question.  In Option 1, the overhand is obvious, while the "69" is NOT obvious.  In Option 2, the "69" is somewhat obvious, while the overhand is NOT obvious.

Again, if we're talking about beginners, then I think the easiest method is to start with the obvious "69" for the BEND.  If a student has never heard of a Zeppelin loop/bend, and you lead off with the "69" method for the loop (Option 2), then I believe you would be doing that student a disservice.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2010, 09:57:55 PM by knot4u »

jcsampson

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2010, 10:03:05 PM »
I bet that this is why roo is asking the question! That is, to find out what folks immediately notice about the diagrams, so that he can use that information to tweak and create the ultimate diagram of all Zeppelin diagrams. He is the master of all things Zeppelin!

JCS

Transminator

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2010, 10:16:01 PM »
Again, if we're talking about beginners, then I think the easiest method is to start with the obvious "69" for the BEND.  If you teach the Zeppelin system by starting with the "69" for the loop (Option 2), then I believe you would be doing your students a disservice.

I agree. The 69 is the best for the bend and the option 2 only makes sense, if you teach the 69 method bend first.
Option 2 seems more complex then it actually is though, because it shows the entire process in one picture (just before the final tuck).
If you show somebody person to person, I think it is not so complicated.
When I first learned the zeppelin loop a few years ago, from roo's first diagram, I sometimes tied the overhand the other way round without realizing it and wondered why I failed (it would have worked tying it on the left then, which I figured out on closer inspection). with the 69 method (option 2) that problem does not arise, as the overhand knot is automatically tied when threading through the end.

jcsampson

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2010, 11:27:10 PM »
If a method instead of the "69" method is taught for the loop, then the student might need to learn more than one method for what is basically the same knot in different forms. This could be good.

If the "69" method is taught, then the student will need just one method for both Zeppelin forms. This could be good.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other. This could be good.

I say we teach a student everything that could be good, and then ask the student, "Which method do you prefer?"

JCS

Transminator

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2010, 08:45:00 AM »
[...] if I start a beginner with this "69" for the Zeppelin loop [...] , then I think the beginner would NOT appreciate how the heck the "69" is supposed to make things easier.

Well, you could teach a beginner the "69" method, without pointing out the "69". I just show him step by step what I do. Form an eye (6), thread the end through the eye from behind, go around and thread through the small loop thus created from behind (forming a 9> arriving at the situation in the picture) and finish it off with the final tuck. All they need to remember is: eye, thread twice from behind and then from the front through both eyes (which is to say: follow the line through that already goes through both eyes).

I say we teach a student everything that could be good, and then ask the student, "Which method do you prefer?"

I second that. I would take the time to teach both the bend and the loop using both methods and how to adjust it easily. This should give the student excellent inside in the structure (there is an overhand knot, a 6 and a 9 in both forms) and how the knot works.
Then pick the method that you are more comfortable with.
Knot4u is more comfortable with method 1, JCSampson and I apparently find option 2 easier and our student?

This only shows again why it is so important to show different tying methods for one and the same knot, as one might be so awkward for one person that he decides to turn his back on a particular knot, because he finds the tying method so awkward that he rather picks a different (perhaps less secure) knot.
The Zeppelin Loop in particular might have been a victim already, as it is, compared to the bowline e.g., rather complex. I am sure that is one of the reasons why it is never found in a boyscout manual or a list of "6 (or 12) knots everybody should know". I say: The zeppelin loop and bend should be in that list and the two tying methods are an opportunity to (perhaps) make it more popular. Teaching both methods (and how they are connected) makes it more likely that at least one of them sticks in the memory.

Transminator

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2010, 10:53:32 AM »
 So I believe that one can find still another method for the Zeppelin loop

Well, there is this other method. The one in which you have to tie a reef knot, fold it and put the loop through.
Roo should remember the discussion he had in this thread: http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.crafts.knots/2007-01/msg00002.html
(Unfortunately the picture links don't work anymore and therefore it should be difficult to figure out how that works just from the description.)

As I tried it when the links still worked (a year ago or so) I still remembered enough to get it working again.
Basically you have to tie a reef knot with the two ends of a line (as you want the loop at the end of the line, one "end" stays very long, which is to say: tie a reef knot with one end around the standing part), which creates a loop. Fold the loose reef knot back into the loop and push the loop through its center from the front. The secret then is to pull the loop all the way through, till the reef knot flips inside out and you end up with the zeppelin loop, which is quite amazing and unexpected, to say the least. I now get it to work every time but I am not sure what to make of it yet. (*)
Unfortunately my Laptop is broken but I will see if I can get a new set of pictures taken to illustrate this new, mysterious "reef knot method" of tying the zeppelin loop for the guild to scrutinize...

(*) Edit: after playing around with it some more, I find this method very counter-intuitive. I manage to get a zeppelin loop out of it (you need to get the knack for it), but sometimes the short end ends up as the standing part, which means a lot of adjustment. If it does not work, the "reef knot" might have been a granny knot instead. I doubt that this will replace the other two methods (too awkward and too many places to go wrong), but it is still interesting for theoretical reasons. I haven't quite figured out yet, why exactly this works in the first place.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2010, 01:48:56 PM by Transminator »

roo

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2010, 08:23:13 PM »
 So I believe that one can find still another method for the Zeppelin loop

Well, there is this other method. The one in which you have to tie a reef knot, fold it and put the loop through.
Roo should remember the discussion he had in this thread: http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.crafts.knots/2007-01/msg00002.html
Yes, I remember that discussion.  That method is entertaining and a great brain-teaser, but I do feel that it is important for an end loop to be able to close off around an object as you tie it, regardless of the size or geometry of the object.  So that rules out methods where the loop "grows" out of the knot form.
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2010, 05:31:19 AM »
... , or there is a profound difference between the two knots that I can not pinpoint.
So I believe that one can find still another method for the Zeppelin loop, a method
perhaps more akin to the character of the specific knot, ...

Maybe your senses yearn for a true eyeknot manifestation of the knot?

Where is it decreed that the corresponding eyeknot to a bend is defined
by returning one half-of-the-bend's tail back as though it is the other
end to be bent to the first?  Mostly this is how it seems, with such common
eyeknots as the Overhand & Fig.8; it is a biased/particular case with the
Bowline (since the Sheet bend is asymmetric); it is a highly dubious case
with the Square/Reef (but I found one, in the wild (and have at long last
recently re-found the specimen I feared lost)!).

Now, there are a variety of ways to better match Rosendahl bend mechanics
with an eye knot, and the "pure" knot is TIB (tiable in the bight)!!
-- bonus, that, eh?!)
 ;)

--dl*
====