Author Topic: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch  (Read 168030 times)

roo

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Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2011, 07:34:22 AM »
I just tried out the span loop on my trailer, went from rail to rail (no with load to bind down) and though it is quick, it was more difficult to untie than my go-to loop. I like the butterfly loop best in this application because I will usually leave it a bit sloppily dressed. It still holds as the "pulley" and will untie easier.
Are you sure you tied the Span Loop correctly?:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/spanloop.html
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SS369

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Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2011, 04:17:32 PM »
Hello Roo,

I am as sure as I can be as I used your drawing on the page at the site you've supplied the link for.
Thank you.

I did yank it tight enough to flex the trailer side rails in towards each other where the front verticals stiffen them.
The rope I used is a dynamic rope and that may exasperate the untying. I did untie it though, just not as easily as the loop I normally use.
I also use some "cheapy" rope for loads that don't require  the "good" rope  and won't dare try it with any kind of knot/loop that stands a chance of jamming because the nature of this rope is very abrasive and compressive.

SS

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2011, 08:11:08 PM »
I like the Span Loop because it may be the easiest loop to untie for this particular application.
I have the found the Butterfly to be more difficult to untie.  YMMV.

Besides the doubled sheepshank (to coin a term),
another TIB eyeknot that could work here is the so-called
Yosemite bowline.  And there are other single TIB bowlines.

And maybe another way to try to lessen abrasion of rope-on-rope
through the eye is to use a 2-eyed knot with separate reevings
per eye --i.e., go through one down to anchor and back up
then down through the other (nominally, more than really,
upping the mechanical advantage to 5:1).  Practically, now,
to lessen abrasion, one would want to haul down on BOTH
down-lines from these eyes, in unison.

--dl*
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TMCD

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Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2011, 01:10:29 PM »
I'm currently tying a slipped OH, then taking the loop and tying a half hitch around the standing part above the knot.  This is a super little fixed loop for tying the truckers knot.

Does this loop appear in Ashley's Book? I haven't been able to find it if it does, it's a little different than the span loop which works out of the bellringer knot. I couldn't seem to tie the span loop exactly how Ashley's drawing rendered the knot, my knot part looked just a lttle different. However, I'm sure it was the span loop because it's so simple to tie and it was secure and untied easily. I like the slipped OH tied off with a half hitch though, is there a name for this?

Sweeney

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Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2011, 07:28:22 PM »
This sounds like a variation on ABOK #1019 (where the end is half hitched rather than the loop itself). I can see it would be hard to untie after loading and of course you cannot slip the half hitch.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2011, 06:42:56 PM »
Animated Knots used to (maybe currently does, but it's slated to be
upgraded, and the impending revision uses Dir.Fig.8) show a simple
twisted eye for the Trucker's Hitch.  I would take this twisted eye
and make one simple change : put counter-/over-wraps of the tail
around the twisted core, to stabilize that and make the point of
initial curvature-loading of the tail near the twisted eye (rather
than at its tail-end, as currently shown).
Cf. www.animatedknots.com/truckers/index.php?Categ=scouting&LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com

I tried this structure --the twist-eye holding a bight-eye which is
used qua sheave-- in 5/16" laid PP and stood on the secured
hitch with a 5:1 pulley --400#?  It was easy to untie.  I was
concerned that the twist-eye might compress/deform in some
way with heavy loading, but it seemed stable.

My prescription : make 3 half-turns (adding a cross of bight legs
each time) of a bight, then bring the tail around to wrap in 2
half-wraps (or 3) and tuck a bight through the just-formed twist-eye.
Then take the tail down to the fixed anchorage and back up through
the bight-eye and Haul Away, Joe!


--dl*
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TMCD

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Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2011, 02:38:51 PM »
The knot he tied, the slipped OH with the loop half-hitched above:  I don't know a name for this.  I would like to know it, if there is one.
He's not saying that this is a span loop.  Let's for arguments sake call it the the slipped OH with the loop half-hitched above, for now (OH&HHL).

The OH&HHL seems fine.  I tried it and no problems.
The span loop too is good.  I found no reason not to use it.

The knot that Andy uses, the bell ringer's knot with the loop half-hitched above:  any reason why this couldn't be considered a double loop?  I tried it and it seems fine, though I did no testing. (I tried it a few minutes ago and got on here to ask immediately.)

Also, why the name sheepshank?  I love that it's called that but why?  I don't see that the knot resembles a lamb leg.  

One more thing: I came up with another loop idea.  Make the bell ringer's knot.  Then instead of hitching the loop above, instead take it around the standing part above and through the small first sheepshank loop, exactly like a bowline is finished.  You end up with a loop with a tiny smaller one inside, the larger one being the operative one.



Ok ...ONE more thing.  Has anyone considered also using the inline figure-8 loop?  That's also a pretty quick knot to tie.  Also known as the single bowline on a bight, but there at least two knots called that, #1057 & #1058, the latter being preferable.

In Geoffrey Budworth's book, I found this loop and he calls it a overhand knot and half hitch. He also says it's known as a packer's knot. Budworth claims weavers use it, eskimos, and anglers for a leader loop.

TMCD

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Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2011, 08:43:42 PM »
I really think the knot performs well, it's very simple to tie and has shown it's strength in holding down my ladders. I don't like to untie it though, that's it's major negative IMO. It's hard to undo the half hitch after it's under strain. IMO, the span loop unties much easier BUT is harder to tie, so they both have drawbacks. I'll probably start going with the span loop in the future, although I really like the ease/speed of tying the "packer's knot" when I'm loading up ladders at the end of a hard day.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2011, 11:19:04 PM »
...
In Geoffrey Budworth's book, I found this loop and he calls it a overhand knot and half hitch.
...

That citation is wayyyy general --GB has about two dozen books!
Which one meets your eyes, here?

 :)

TMCD

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Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2011, 02:31:17 PM »
...
In Geoffrey Budworth's book, I found this loop and he calls it a overhand knot and half hitch.
...

That citation is wayyyy general --GB has about two dozen books!
Which one meets your eyes, here?

 :)

The Ultimate Encyclopedia of KNOTS and Ropework written by Budworth is the book I found it in. It's in the very front of the book covered under 'basic knots'. I would highly recommend this book to any person with an interest in knots. It's simply a beautiful book from cover to cover.


roo

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Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2011, 06:02:03 PM »
I've been playing with this stuff all week, thought I'd give my final thoughts, for what they're worth.

Pretty much all of the suggested permanent inline loops (lineman's loop, span loop, bellringers with half hitch, #1074, #1057, #1058) have the same attributes: easy to tie, with a tendency to jam under a heavy load.  None of them stand out from the others too well.  If I want one of these loops, I think the alpine butterfly loop (ABOK #1053) is probably the easiest to untie.  I like Andy's method to tie his Bellringer knot with the half hitch, but I still favour what I always used, which was the slipped stevedore knot.  It's fast to tie, fast to undo and isn't a permanent loop, yet is more stable than just a slipped overhand.  I think these are the most important attributes for a trucker's hitch.

I find that the Span Loop is easier to untie after hard loop load than the alpine Butterfly Loop.  Do you have a picture of a jammed Span Loop for verification purposes? 
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2011, 12:26:43 AM »
I've been playing with this stuff all week, thought I'd give my final thoughts, for what they're worth.

Pretty much all of the suggested permanent inline loops (lineman's loop, span loop, bellringers with half hitch, #1074, #1057, #1058) have the same attributes: easy to tie, with a tendency to jam under a heavy load.  None of them stand out from the others too well.  If I want one of these loops, I think the alpine butterfly loop (ABOK #1053) is probably the easiest to untie.  I like Andy's method to tie his Bellringer knot with the half hitch, but I still favour what I always used, which was the slipped stevedore knot.  It's fast to tie, fast to undo and isn't a permanent loop, yet is more stable than just a slipped overhand.  I think these are the most important attributes for a trucker's hitch.

"Playing" is good; but please give details of materials & loading,
so we can try to understand exactly what you're doing.

There should be an easy selection of non-jamming knots here,
esp. those with bowline-like bases.  As noted, I tried a sort of
version of what I think Knot4U calls a "Stevedore" structure,
stabilizing it with counter-wraps, and loading it pretty substantially
after hauled tight.  (Though we should note that the hauling
puts more challenge to the mid-line eye-knot than the holding,
as it will be somewhat imbalanced vis-a-vis the part leading
away down to the anchor hook/ring, given friction --i.e., it
will be more an end-eye than a mid-line eye, in loading.)



I've brought ropes to near breaking, but the Span Loop still unties easily for me. 
:o  How did you bring ropes to near breaking (and how can you tell)?!
--that's some few thousand pounds force!  Even with my (crummy) 5:1 pulley,
I figure that I'm only reaching around 800# or so if I bounce on it some.
(I have accidentally broken some cords, and Fishline, Beware!)

Quote
a Butterfly tight and difficult to untie, I'll use it in a Trucker Hitch.

Noting that the butterfly is asymmetric, and has various ways to
orient the eye-legs (or tails) --crossing or not (not is usually depicted).


Quote
Above, Roo noted that a slip knot can subject a Trucker Hitch to a Poldo Tackle problem if there is a strong vibration or tampering:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg12642#msg12642

No, Roo only mused that maybe something like that could happen
(and, frankly, it's unlikely in the (dubious) Poldo tackle, for that matter)
--to wit:  "wondering if it might be subject to a poldo-tackle-type effect" .

NONE of the slip knots pass. 
...
I didn't take his word for it.  I verified this when I put various slip knots through a tamper test.

And I don't take your word for it, and ...
I call BS --and let's see some details of your test set-up.

I've just tried to see this in sub-1/4" soft solid-braid nylon,
and 4mm? slick soft-laid (firm strands) PP.  Only with some
deliberate lifting of the haul-down side of the bight to the
anchor hook could I force some shift in the nipped sheave
bight, and only before hauling the structure tighter.
That any such de-tensioning can happen with a tied-off
structure in normal cordage is beyond belief : the slippage
will have to go through the tying-off hitch around haul legs,
around the hook, and through the strongly nipping S.Part-eye!!
That is some kind of tampering.  (My lifting, to be clear, removes
any load from the "slipped" eye-sheave; normal use sees this with
tension.)


--dl*
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2011, 07:42:02 AM »
Whether you think I was thinking is beside the point,
it is a question yet begging an answer, lacking in your reply.

Ignoring the question of your "tamper test" in which you found
slippage doesn't shed any light on the issue, either.  You claim
to have gotten a trucker's hitch to have loosen by some mythical
Poldo-Tackle mechanism --slipping around three hard turns and
at least one strong nip--, and that certainly bears questioning,
still in the absence of any explanation (as you eliminate a
practical impossibility).

--dl*
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TMCD

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Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2011, 01:58:53 PM »
All of this conversation and we haven't come close to an agreement on which midline loop to use for the truckers hitch....I guess I'll keep using the slipped OH with half hitch added to then form a fixed loop. Budworth also calls this a 'packers knot'. The two that make the most sense to me are the span loop and the one I just described, especially if we're worried about using a slippery hitch of some sort.

The common way on youtube and other internet sites seem to be a slippery hitch with a twist or two...many here seem to think that won't hold properly and I can see where you're coming from. This method would probably be just fine in most applications though, such as moving furniture from one part of town to the other etc. I'm starting to believe the most important part of the trucker's hitch system besides the midline loop or hitch, is the final tying off method.

roo

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Re: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2011, 05:34:33 PM »
No, Roo only mused that maybe something like that could happen
(and, frankly, it's unlikely in the (dubious) Poldo tackle, for that matter)
--to wit:  "wondering if it might be subject to a poldo-tackle-type effect" .
I've noted that it isn't difficult to get the Poldo Tackle to lengthen if subjected to jostling, jolting, or other motion.  I encourage you to give it a try.  The only question is how difficult it is to get that effect to take place in an actual tensioned trucker's hitch with a slip loop or a loop that communicates with the moving line.  This assumes that you can see the Poldo Tackle analog in such a trucker's hitch that doesn't use a fixed loop.

I will kindly leave the matter to knot4u to describe the conditions by which Poldo-Loosening occurred in his trucker's hitch testing.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 05:37:33 PM by roo »
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