Author Topic: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch  (Read 144259 times)

Andy

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Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
« Reply #120 on: December 10, 2012, 11:42:24 PM »
And now, pictures of what I really want to discuss: the double twist.
(I argue that this is exactly what the man in the video does, but there is no agreement on that, so let's not focus on that question for a moment.)

Pic 1: the bight going through a double twist.
Pic 2: the same, tightened without any particular attention to dressing.
Pic 3: optionally, secured with a half-hitch made with the ear. I do this nine times out of ten.

For orientation, the red circle represents one of the anchor points. The other anchor point would be on the right side of the rope. To tighten, you pull the left rope.

This method is both related to 172 and to the sheepshank. I don't know the name for the double twist hitch.

Curious to know if anyone else uses this. If not, what advantage they see to an alternate method.
The benefit I see to this method is best shown by Pic 1: the double twist is frighteningly fast to make. And the hitch is secure.

Peace,

Andy
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TMCD

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Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
« Reply #121 on: December 11, 2012, 01:10:27 AM »
I'm of the opinion that the double twist version is not an upgrade. Ashley tells us several times in his knot bible that some people will throw in an extra turn, tuck, twist etc., when one would've done just fine. I see this scenario fitting exactly what Ashley was referring to when he made those remarks in his book.


Andy

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Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
« Reply #122 on: December 11, 2012, 04:31:25 AM »
Quote
I'm of the opinion that the double twist version is not an upgrade.

Hi TMCD,

Thanks for your message.

My instinct about extra things being added to common knots is similar to yours.
In this case, I am not aware that the second twist would be a variation on any "trucker" or "wagoner's hitch" mentioned in Ashley. Yes it resembles 172 and 1148 with an extra twist, these are presented as Bell ringer's knots rather than truckies, and of those knots Ashley says that "The purpose is to keep the rope from the belfry deck when the bell is not in use." Hardly the same heavy duty job as the one required by a trucker's hitch, which will place enormous tension on that portion of "shortened rope".

In fact, unless I am misunderstanding, this thread started by PwH suggests that a double twist is the standard method of tying a truckie in the UK:
[EDIT: nope, PwH tells me that he was talking about something quite different: a twist in the pulley eye, before reeving the downhaul rope, which is also a different "choreography" to the video, where the downhaul is "pre-reeved".]

Quote
Over here in England it is invariably tied as the first end of a short sheepshank, with a twist put in the eye to firm it up, then a bight of the W E pushed thru

This would explain why the truckie was shown to me like that in Australia.

Also, I do have day-to-day experience tying truckies, both with one twist and with two. I have experimented with one twist because when the truckie was taught to me a long time ago, I was told that "one twist can be enough, but it is not as strong." That matches my experience exactly---especially when you don't secure the ear with a half hitch. This may not count for much in an exchange of words, but that is my real-life experience. That's why I was hoping to see more discussion of this simple method. On the other hand, that discussion is only meaningful if others also have experience with (or experiment with) various methods.

Wishing you a beautiful week,

Andy

« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 08:48:05 PM by Andy »
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Sweeney

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Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
« Reply #123 on: December 11, 2012, 12:11:02 PM »

Curious to know if anyone else uses this. If not, what advantage they see to an alternate method.
The benefit I see to this method is best shown by Pic 1: the double twist is frighteningly fast to make. And the hitch is secure.
Hi Andy

Now that you've posted pictures (and I've looked at the video another 4 times!) I can see what you mean though I see this as a "full twist" rather than a "double twist" (think of a round turn) though that doesn't make any difference to what it actually is. I think knot4u and I were looking for the wrong thing. No matter let's get to the real question. I've just tried the full twist against the half hitch in a couple of pieces of cord about 4mm (one braided nylon the other 3 strand cotton) tied as if ABOK 172 the full (double if you prefer) twist seems to flip off much more easily than the half hitch - adding a locking half hitch masks this. As always YMMV!

In another thread (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3878.0) knot4u proposed a quite different method using a piece of scrap rope to save wear. It's well worth considering because not least, like ABOK 173, it can be tied without needing access to the end of the main rope and takes no more time to tie.

Barry

Andy

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Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
« Reply #124 on: December 11, 2012, 08:33:18 PM »
Hi Barry,

Thank you very much for taking the time to see that "double twist" in the video (double compared to a sheepshank or bowline nip). It's nice to know I'm not raving mad. ;D

Thank you also for sharing your test results in 4mm material. So in these thinner ropes you are finding that a single twist holds better than two. Interesting! I will experiment with the new rope I bought last week for the truck (8mm polyester). It is thicker as tends to be the case for truckies. You've made me curious to see if it behaves differently from my old 8mm polyprop rope. Anyhow, I dutifully note the +1 on the single twist's score sheet.

Last, thank you for sharing the link to Knot4U's "scrap rope" method. What a fun idea. I love the picture of the stopper and cow sheave.

Wishing you all a beautiful day,

Andy
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Andy

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Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
« Reply #125 on: December 12, 2012, 12:08:00 AM »
Hi Knot4U,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
That's a really interesting and clever way of looking at it.
Man, you seem really passionate about your knots, you dissect them like a biologist.

I think you've just about convinced me and converted me to the single twist.
I'll make an effort to only use that in the next month and see how that feels.

Thanks again.

Regards,

Andy
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TMCD

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Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
« Reply #126 on: December 12, 2012, 10:43:20 PM »
Very well put Knot4U, my line of thinking was/is very similar to yours regarding this subject.

Andy

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Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
« Reply #127 on: December 18, 2012, 10:40:40 AM »
Hi TMCD,

Quote
I'm of the opinion that the double twist version is not an upgrade.
Quote
Very well put Knot4U, my line of thinking was/is very similar to yours regarding this subject.

Interestingly, I have come across a post where you said you "love the Siberian Hitch".

If you look at Roo's diagrams, you will see that the Siberian, compared with the Halter hitch, is a perfect analogy to the "double twist" I've been talking about for the truckie. In both cases, you have to decide between pushing a bight through the eye of a single twist, or through the eye of a double twist.

But you've made it clear that you despise double twists. Does this mean that since July you've changed your mind on the Siberian? Or that you see something fundamentally different in the Siberian's double twist compared with the truckie's double twist? Or that your thinking is still evolving on this matter?

Regards,

Andy
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Andy

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Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
« Reply #128 on: December 23, 2012, 12:21:17 AM »
Hi Knot4U,

Quote
Thus, one turn is it.

I've been experimenting with making a single turn for about a week now. So far no complaints. :)

Wishing you a fun weekend and relaxing holiday season.
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Keystoner

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Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
« Reply #129 on: December 30, 2012, 12:57:02 AM »
Introduction

First, let me introduce myself.  In 1985, at the age of 14, I took possession of, and never returned, the book Klutz Book of Knots, from my father's desk.  I've had an interest ever since.  I'm familiar with the ABOK book, but I haven't treated myself to that expensive book yet.  A few years ago I bought the book Knots, by Richard Hopkins.   A couple months ago it occurred to me to look up the Klutz book for a friend, who has a 14 year old son.  I bought the kid the book and tried to inspire him the way it did me.  He didn't get bitten by the bug but my friend did.  He's been practicing and texting me about various knots ever since.  As a result, my knot passion is as high as ever.  It has brought me to this forum.  I'm still a hack but I'm eager to improve.  This Trucker's Hitch thread and the associated YouTube videos have taken up much of my free time the last couple weeks.

The Fixed Loop

The Klutz book showed a slipped overhand loop.  I like the arguments against using such a knot (losing tension) and was pleased to learn the Alpine Butterfly Knot.  What is the name of the fixed loop used in the following video?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N6blmw006U

Pros/Cons?

The Clove Hitch

There was some debate as to the desirability of using a Clove Hitch to initially fix the rope.  I liked the following video for its overall presentation of a Trucker's Hitch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drkcOzCjuuU
This fellow ties a Clove Hitch but adds a Half Hitch.  Does the addition of the Half Hitch appeal to those who discourage the Clove Hitch?

The Great Lee Bundy

In this thread, this fellow seems to have gained legendary status with the combination of knots in his Trucker's Hitch (his combo is very similar to the fellow in the linked video just above).  I think his combo deserves his name, Lee's Trucker's Hitch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcz-D0kxiwo

I'm not taking sides in the flame war that occurred regarding the dis/advantage of single vs. double turns.  However, I did NOT see a double twist corkscrew turn prior to the insertion of the bight.  I watched it many times over the last week.  Please pardon my ignorance as to the proper lexicon.  Here's what I saw Lee do (I believe someone said something similar):  he forms a loop (possibly the first purported twist?) and then turns it to expose the back of the loop (possibly the second purported twist?) in order to insert the bight.  To me this assembly appears identical to what is done when tying a Bowline (without going around and reinserting the bight, of course).  By the way, in recent comments to the video, Lee was alerted to this thread and was asked whether a double twist corkscrew turn was performed.  A representative at trailblazesonline answered in the negative.

Maintaining Tension

I have questions about Lee's Trucker's Hitch and Trucker's Hitches in general.  With a fixed midline loop, what is the best way to maintain tension while finally tying off?  In other words, the working part (the part that is hauled or heaved? Lexicon?) is passing through an open loop.  As soon as I stop heaving and let up to tie the two half hitches I'm losing tension.  How can I avoid this?

To try to maintain tension, I've tried the following when tying Lee's combo.  After inserting the bight through the nip/loop, I pull on the leg of the bight that snugs up the loop through which the working part passes.  Basically, that loop (the fixed loop in other variations) is cinched down to the diameter of the running part in order to snug it.  This can be done with (what has been so discouraged in this thread) a slipped knot as well.  It's harder to untie.  Is this a good technique or should I follow Lee and leave the loop open?

Thanks all.  I hope to be spending more time on the forum.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 07:26:59 PM by Keystoner »

TMCD

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Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
« Reply #130 on: January 03, 2013, 06:09:28 PM »
Keystoner,
Your reply deserves a response on this subject that's obviously VERY important to us knotheads by the size of the thread. I'll give it a short go and others may chime in with more information.

To answer your last question about how to not lose tension when tying off the final half hitches, you simply take the working end and run it through the midline knot twice, not the traditional method of one time only. By doing this, you also increase your mechanical advantage and it normally gives you a "selflocking" Trucker's Hitch, allowing you to tie off without losing much if any tension. If you choose to only pass it through the midline loop once, the traditional way, you'll have to really pinch down with your fingers to hold the tension.

Of the three methods you linked, I like the middle method the best. That guy's using ABOK 173, which is using the Clove Hitch as the midline loop, WAY more secure than ABOK 172. He's tying TWO Trucker's Hitches, creating at least a theoretical 6-1 mechanical advantage...it's one beast of a TH and my favorite on you tube. If you're moving furniture, tables, wood or anything that needs tied down, you can't go wrong with that setup IMO...Bundy's Trucker Hitch is a good one too...I just prefer the beauty of ABOK 173. I also like the extra half hitch he throws on his anchor Cloves, giving the traditional Clove Hitch much more security.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 06:12:20 PM by TMCD »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
« Reply #131 on: January 03, 2013, 06:52:31 PM »
To be clear about this mechanism of a double twist, I've linked Andy's pic below.
/.../
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1870.0;attach=8735;image
Thanks for that.  But, the image shows the formation/start,
not the result, which is a crossing knot vice a nipping turn.

.:. IMO, the former is more stable --and equally functional--
than the latter.

Quote
The only thing an extra twist does is reduce the constricting force of the nip,
and thereby reduce security.
And of course, given my thoughts above, I disagree;
I see that the crossing-knot gives more stability to equally adequate
nip, and hence is a better assurance of the overall structure working.

Quote
Tie a Figure 8 Stopper, and compare that to a Figure 9 Stopper, a Figure 10 Stopper,
... and a Figure 99 Stopper.  Good luck on getting a Figure 99 to jam or otherwise to hold at all.
???  Acctually, I happen to be focused on stoppers at the moment,
re use in rockclimbing kernmantle (and other) ropes to "back up"
some other structure, to provide an extra security against untying.
And what the stevedore knot gives in advantage over the fig.8 stopper
is greater security (not really much greater bulk, though more mass):
the extra wraps better grip the SPart, which in turn then retains
nip on the tail.  Even so, working with stiff rope can be difficult.

(There is some help in that for the uses I'm focusing on, one will
typically be tying the stopper around a rope and so have one
extra diameter to stuff within the bending-resistant wraps!)
The standard "half a fisherman's" strangle knot (i.e., with just
one overwrap) is too vulnerable to what I call "sympathetic loosening"
in which both ends ease back into the knot and effect a significant
loosening; wheres the stevedore-like construction puts the wraps
towards locking one end, which in turn nips secure the other;
some other knots seem better at not so readily loosening on
a little relaxation of tension.)

Quote
Through this process of extrapolation, I'm comfortable with saying one twist is the point of maximum constriction.

Hmmm, I think that Xarax presented an orientation of a double
(= 2 turns) nipping loop that should give greater nip, and maybe
more stability, to boot.  (For myself, I remain leery of these simple
structures, and prefer a *real* knot, such as the slip-knot.)


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Andy

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Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
« Reply #132 on: January 03, 2013, 07:26:33 PM »
Update: still experimenting with the single twist. Two trips to the timber yard yesterday, two truckies each. One slipped when I leaned back to put my weight on it (quite a jolt!), which never happened to me with the double twist. But it's a new rope, so I can't be sure whether to blame the single twist or the rope. (This was not my new white 8mm polyester shown on the picture Dan linked to, but my new black-orange 8mm polypro "California truck rope"). Will keep observing.

Quote
But, the image shows the formation/start, not the result

Great point. Once you pull, the double twist changes configuration and settles into something quite different from the single.

Quote
I think that Xarax presented an orientation of a double (= 2 turns) nipping loop that should give greater nip, and maybe more stability

This reminds me now reading in a book that the "double bowline" (the one with two nips, not two loops) is more stable than the single. Not that it makes it true of course. But I've believed that for a number of years. Always interested in changing my beliefs when new information comes in, so we'll see. Of course this is quite different from a double twist.
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Keystoner

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Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
« Reply #133 on: January 04, 2013, 12:45:04 AM »
Thank you for responding.  I was beginning to think I was blacklisted after only one post.

To answer your last question about how to not lose tension when tying off the final half hitches, you simply take the working end and run it through the midline knot twice, not the traditional method of one time only.

Do you mean: go through the fixed loop, cinch down, back around the support, back through the fixed loop for the second time (like a versatackle), cinch down, and then two half hitches -or- twice through the fixed loop (like a round turn), cinch down, and then two half hitches?  Interesting.  (I'm writing "two half hitches" as one example of the final tying off.) 

Did you understand what I was trying to suggest about cinching up the loop around the running part to increase friction and reduce tension loss?  What do you think?

Bundy's Trucker Hitch is a good one too...I just prefer the beauty of ABOK 173. I also like the extra half hitch he throws on his anchor Cloves, giving the traditional Clove Hitch much more security.

As I observed:  The Asian fellow uses a Clove Hitch (with a gap between the two nips--as the Austrailian fellow on the wood deck video does--or are we calling this a Sheepshank version?).  Lee Bundy doesn't use a Clove Hitch since he doesn't use two nips; he uses one, similar to a Bowline.  [Keystoner now puts on flame retardant suit...]  He then ties the extra half hitch with the bight that he passed through the single Bowline nip.

This fellow is a great teacher:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjIi46dZ08M
He ties the same mid-line knot as Lee (one single nip), except that he doesn't tie a half hitch with the bight for extra security.  What I love about this video is that I just learned how to achieve that single nip without explicity forming it prior to insertion of the bight--a new way for me to form a Bowline as well!
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 03:21:48 AM by Keystoner »

Keystoner

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Re: Trucker Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
« Reply #134 on: January 04, 2013, 12:58:03 AM »
Update: still experimenting with the single twist. Two trips to the timber yard yesterday, two truckies each. One slipped when I leaned back to put my weight on it (quite a jolt!), which never happened to me with the double twist.

Hello Andy.  What I noticed with some YouTube tyers who use a single nip, like Lee, but don't secure the bight with a half hitch like Lee, is that they grab the bight and push/hold it up as they haul the working end down.  This should help prevent the slippage you experienced above.  The Asian fellow (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drkcOzCjuuU) uses the two nip/clove hitch variation, but he pushes/holds the bight up to prevent slippage.  He says, "Make sure you leave this one up and pull."