Author Topic: Halter Hitch vs. Other Similar Hitches  (Read 9033 times)

knot4u

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Halter Hitch vs. Other Similar Hitches
« on: June 09, 2010, 05:45:54 PM »
I have tried the following halter hitch with various ropes and various sized objects:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halter_hitch

I like it so far.  Can someone explain to me why the slipped buntline is more popular.  From my initial testing, the halter is simpler and seems to be just as "secure" (for lack of a better word) as the slipped buntline.

By the way, I can't find the "modified halter hitch" anywhere.

roo

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Re: Halter Hitch vs. Other Similar Hitches
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2010, 05:50:27 PM »
I have tried the following halter hitch with various ropes and various sized objects:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halter_hitch

I like it so far.  Can someone explain to me why the slipped buntline is more popular.  From my initial testing, the halter is simpler and seems to be just as "secure" (for lack of a better word) as the slipped buntline.

By the way, I can't find the "modified halter hitch" anywhere.

Since the Siberian Hitch is just a Halter Hitch with an extra twist in the receiving bight, I was equating the Siberian Hitch with a "Modified Halter Hitch".   Just my usage.  

The  buntline's form (slipped or non-slipped) is more stable than the Halter Hitch/Siberian Family and will give a slight edge in security that may not be noticable in many applications unless stiff or slick rope is used in loose flogging situations.

The buntline family's time-tested security has earned it much respect.

I don't like the Wikipedia entry on the Halter Hitch.  It can be presented in a simpler way.  It may be a slightly different version, anyway.  Maybe I'll have to post an image later.   ;)
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 06:16:18 PM by roo »
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knot4u

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Re: Halter Hitch vs. Other Similar Hitches
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2010, 06:17:23 PM »
I agree about the Wikipedia pic.  The pic should show a pole going through the top loop.  The pole would simplify the pic.

roo

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Re: Halter Hitch vs. Other Similar Hitches
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2010, 07:53:50 PM »
I don't like the Wikipedia entry on the Halter Hitch.  It can be presented in a simpler way.  It may be a slightly different version, anyway.  Maybe I'll have to post an image later.   ;)

I threw together a quick sketch that I think shows things better, with a cleaner tying method, and helps to show the relationship with the Siberian:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/haltersiberian.html
« Last Edit: July 06, 2010, 08:29:45 PM by roo »
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knot4u

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Re: Halter Hitch vs. Other Similar Hitches
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2010, 08:05:37 PM »
Looks good.

What the heck is this guy tying?  He calls it a halter hitch, but I'm thinking he's wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25sjdNzTeLU

And this guy makes his tutorial overly complex by forming a lock first and generally talking too much:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct9sGBqPyXg

For crying out loud, the halter hitch is one of the easiest knots I've learned.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 09:17:38 PM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Halter Hitch vs. Other Similar Hitches
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2010, 08:32:29 PM »
What the heck is this guy tying?  He calls it a halter hitch, but I'm thinking he's wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25sjdNzTeLU


The first time, he apparently bungles whatever he was trying and ends up with a nothing.  The next time, he seems to end up with a twisted-up buntline hitch.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 08:53:12 PM by roo »
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knot4u

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Re: Halter Hitch vs. Other Similar Hitches
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2010, 09:02:28 PM »
The following is probably obvious to most of you...

Here's a pic of a slipped half hitch, which is a half turn away from being a halter hitch. The slipped half hitch serves a useful purpose when it's tied against its own rope.  However, I CANNOT get this slipped half hitch to hold a load when it's against a pole like in the pic below.  I wonder if the person even tried to hold a load before they posted the pic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slipped_overhand_knot

So, make sure you tie your halter hitch correctly, lest you end up with a slipped half hitch!  A halter hitch is substantially more secure than a slipped half hitch if you're tying to a pole.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 09:21:00 PM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Halter Hitch vs. Other Similar Hitches
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2010, 06:47:41 AM »
The  buntline's form (slipped or non-slipped) is more stable than the Halter Hitch/Siberian Family

Doing some further tests, this stability issue comes up in a specific test.  With small nylon rope and a bat as an anchor, both the Halter Hitch and the related Siberian Hitch would capsize when exposed to cyclical high strain (and relaxation).  The resultant knot form prevented the draw loop from functioning, and therefore slowed release as I had to loosen the now tightened capsized structure.
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knot4u

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Re: Halter Hitch vs. Other Similar Hitches
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2010, 07:01:17 PM »
The  buntline's form (slipped or non-slipped) is more stable than the Halter Hitch/Siberian Family

Doing some further tests, this stability issue comes up in a specific test.  With small nylon rope and a bat as an anchor, both the Halter Hitch and the related Siberian Hitch would capsize when exposed to cyclical high strain (and relaxation).  The resultant knot form prevented the draw loop from functioning, and therefore slowed release as I had to loosen the now tightened capsized structure.

I agree that the Siberian and Halter deform if given repeated strain and relaxation.  In such a situation, I'd go with a Slipped Buntline (my favorite actually) or another hitch.

One thing I like about the Siberian is that it doesn't have to be dressed properly for it to hold.  For example, I can do my best to dress the Siberian in a haphazard manner, and it will still hold the load.  From my experience, the Slipped Buntline requires a bit more care when tying, or else the knot won't even form at all.  This matter may be a personal issue on what knot is easier to tie for me personally, and so be it.

As for the Halter, theory is the best thing I have to distinguish the Halter from the Siberian.  The Halter is based on an Overhand Slip, while the Siberian is based on a Figure 8 Slip. A Figure 8 knot is theoretically stronger and more secure than an Overhand. (An Overhand knot's claim to fame is its ability to jam, which is often mistaken for security, but jamming is not much of an issue here.)  Thus, assuming all other things are about equal between the Siberian and the Halter, I prefer the Siberian over the Halter.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2010, 07:33:45 PM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Halter Hitch vs. Other Similar Hitches
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2010, 08:44:58 PM »
 However, I CANNOT get this slipped half hitch to hold a load when it's against a pole like in the pic below.  

The first reply in the following thread discusses this with the aid of a diagram:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1621.0

Where you position the last crossing point makes a big difference in how much pressure is on it.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2010, 08:45:50 PM by roo »
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dfred

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Re: Halter Hitch vs. Other Similar Hitches
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2010, 08:14:41 AM »
I substituted a few different images from the Wikimedia Commons into the halter hitch article and took a first pass at rewriting the tying description of the more direct method.  The "floating in space" presentation was definitely less than clear.

Article still needs a note about locking/increasing stability (as well as taking up extra line) of the halter hitch using a chain sinnet as in #1827.  It appears to be covered in the more extensive article in German.  I suppose this could also work for stabilizing a slipped half hitch as well... #1827 (locked) from the commons:


Photo by Markus Barlocher


What the heck is this guy tying?  He calls it a halter hitch, but I'm thinking he's wrong.

Yea, those videos are, uh, something!  A youtube search on "how to tie up a horse" produced some better results than searching specifically for the halter hitch...

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK58wVo7MHc

Incidentally, while the Siberian/Evenk hitch "hand-wrap" method is a great technique to know, when the standing part may suddenly become loaded (e.g. when it is attached to a large animal) it could be a very bad idea to use it.  This would be especially true if the line is passing through a ring or similar constriction near where you're tying.

« Last Edit: June 12, 2010, 12:14:02 AM by dfred »

knot4u

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Re: Halter Hitch vs. Other Similar Hitches
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2010, 05:05:31 PM »
I substituted a few different images from the Wikimedia Commons into the halter hitch article and took a first pass at rewriting the tying description of the more direct method.  The "floating in space" presentation was definitely less than clear.

Article still needs a note about locking/increasing stability (as well as taking up extra line) of the halter hitch using a chain sinnet as in #1827.  It appears to be covered in the more extensive article in German.  I suppose this could also work for stabilizing a slipped half hitch as well... #1827 (locked) from the commons:




What the heck is this guy tying?  He calls it a halter hitch, but I'm thinking he's wrong.

Yea, those videos are, uh, something!  A youtube search on "how to tie up a horse" produced some better results than searching specifically for the halter hitch...

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK58wVo7MHc

Incidentally, while the Siberian/Evenk hitch "hand-wrap" method is a great technique to know, when the standing part may suddenly become loaded (e.g. when it is attached to a large animal) it could be a very bad idea to use it.  This would be especially true if the line is passing through a ring or similar constriction near where you're tying.



The new pic you uploaded to Wikipedia is the pic I had already uploaded to my phone for reference!

By the way, I've never gone through the process of updating a Wikipedia article. I'm glad you changed it, but it's a little discomforting to know that one can change an entry so easily and quickly.

Regarding the lock pic, can you please explain the context?  If I'm going to go through all that trouble, then I'm thinking I'd rather tie a hitch that's more secure than the halter in the first place.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2010, 05:13:02 PM by knot4u »

dfred

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Re: Halter Hitch vs. Other Similar Hitches
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2010, 04:01:31 PM »

The new pic you uploaded to Wikipedia is the pic I had already uploaded to my phone for reference!

By the way, I've never gone through the process of updating a Wikipedia article. I'm glad you changed it, but it's a little discomforting to know that one can change an entry so easily and quickly.


I actually only linked those images, which were already available from the commons.  (I initially forgot, but I've since added a photo credit to my original post to comply with the terms under which these images are licensed.)   As you're probably aware, there are a lot of images of knots available with a fairly liberal license for reuse up there on the commons.  While the categorization is a bit haphazard many are quite useful for reference purposes.   BTW, to see the second page of subcategories click the "(next 200)" link.  Still a lot of categorization work to do, though...

As far as the ease of changing Wikipedia articles, it does carry risks but it also makes correcting errors and less-than-ideal content quite easy.   I've found that most articles eventually stabilize as they reach a reasonable level of completion.  I'd say the halter hitch article isn't there yet.

Quote
Regarding the lock pic, can you please explain the context?  If I'm going to go through all that trouble, then I'm thinking I'd rather tie a hitch that's more secure than the halter in the first place.

That locked-off image does not really present what I think would be used in practice.  I think it's simply a method to shorten the lead, say to keep it out of the mud (or other barnyard hazards :) ), while at the same time adding a bit of stability and retaining the quick release properties.  For instance here's another demonstration showing a slipped half hitch with one additional chain sinnet pass...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0LEeOjBfFE

I'm no equestrian, but it would seem maintaining quick-release even under heavy tension is at least as important as overall security in this kind of application.